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Can I refuse to go on a PIP if I don’t agree with it?

190 replies

Gamecha · 14/03/2025 15:41

Do I have any rights? I feel like this has come out of the blue and absolutely do not feel it is justified. Can I do anything?

OP posts:
HappiestSleeping · 14/03/2025 21:13

Gamecha · 14/03/2025 19:35

I’ve repeatedly asked for work since returning from maternity leave and been given very little. Despite being told it’s not my job to find work and that I didn’t need to worry about that.

I’ve asked for feedback on various things and often he doesn’t respond at all. When he does he changes details that are insignificant. For example changing a sentence that says the same thing in a different way.

All of this has meant I have struggled to know where I’m at or what he expects. I have a long service at this place well before him and I resent the prospect of leaving because he’s decided to treat me like this

You sound (understandably) emotional. You need to get over this really quickly.

Evidence and cool thinking are your friend here. You need as much evidence as you can that you are either meeting your objectives, or that your objectives are not specific / measurable.

It is largely irrelevant what you think your colleagues do / don't do as their objectives will be different to yours.

A PIP should have clearly listed why you are deficient, and what you need to do in order to resolve. Make sure you understand what those criteria are. In forensic detail. And make sure it is achievable. All documented and agreed. If this all happens verbally, make sure you take notes and then email it to whoever was present as your notes from the meeting.

I have used the PIP process to buck up the ideas of employees previously. It isn't always a means to manage people out, but I concede it often can be.

You also need to put aside what you think your objectives should be, or what you think you should be doing. The only thing that matters is whether you are delivering what you have been asked to deliver whether you agree with it or not. I only say this as many of the employees I've had on a PIP delivered some fine work, but it wasn't what they had been asked for, or what was needed. They were most disgruntled.

Bleeky · 14/03/2025 20:58

Advice for you …
Go along with the PIP, make the suggested changes.

As difficult as it is, just go along with their PIP. If they are expecting you to be disagreeable - you will be doing what you think they want.

Try instead to take control, not by fighting, but by complying. Then you can have a less emotional situation and plan your next career move calmly.

If will be easier for you to get another job if you have one already, if you decide to leave. Please don’t count on a “payout” - it’s a bad idea.

Just take all the emotion out of this situation, is just work and tasks and them giving feedback. Just be zen, get thru it and move someplace better on your own terms.

Softleftpowerstance · 14/03/2025 20:50

Gamecha · 14/03/2025 19:35

I’ve repeatedly asked for work since returning from maternity leave and been given very little. Despite being told it’s not my job to find work and that I didn’t need to worry about that.

I’ve asked for feedback on various things and often he doesn’t respond at all. When he does he changes details that are insignificant. For example changing a sentence that says the same thing in a different way.

All of this has meant I have struggled to know where I’m at or what he expects. I have a long service at this place well before him and I resent the prospect of leaving because he’s decided to treat me like this

“Saying the same thing in a different way” is a perfectly legitimate edit/piece of feedback in many jobs. I’m fascinated by what you could do where you think communicating effectively is insignificant.

IDontHateRainbows · 14/03/2025 20:18

soupforbrains · 14/03/2025 20:16

This depends entirely on your contract and your company policy. Some companies have an automatic resignation process if you refuse to go on PIPs. If you disagree with it, it depends on what grounds but usually if you have a concern about the moral/ethical validity of it then you can appeal/raise those concerns directly with HR.

ultimately though this is EXTREMELY company specific. And you need to review your contract the company policies and any other information in company. If you’re willing to share the company then someone may be able to give better advice but otherwise this thread is largely pointless.

It's not pointless at all. Yes there may be some variety in how companies approach performance management but there's also a lot of consistency and the same employment law applies everywhere. But what the fuck do I know, it's not like I haven't worked in this profession since the early 00s

soupforbrains · 14/03/2025 20:16

This depends entirely on your contract and your company policy. Some companies have an automatic resignation process if you refuse to go on PIPs. If you disagree with it, it depends on what grounds but usually if you have a concern about the moral/ethical validity of it then you can appeal/raise those concerns directly with HR.

ultimately though this is EXTREMELY company specific. And you need to review your contract the company policies and any other information in company. If you’re willing to share the company then someone may be able to give better advice but otherwise this thread is largely pointless.

ThinWomansBrain · 14/03/2025 19:56

I totally agree with @CloudSquirrel (& she has my sympathies) - managing someone on a PIP process is a nightmare, and unlikely to be something a manager enters into lightly.
If you are convinced that your performance is of a high standard, why are you so concerned?
Everything around your performance will be documented - if you've been there more than 2 years and fail the PIP, you'll have written evidence to take your employer to a tribunal if you think you have been treated unfairly - or you'll learn why your employer is more concerned about your ability/ to do the role than you are.

If you are not in a union, why not join one? - or seek advice from ACAS

the7Vabo · 14/03/2025 19:47

Gamecha · 14/03/2025 19:35

I’ve repeatedly asked for work since returning from maternity leave and been given very little. Despite being told it’s not my job to find work and that I didn’t need to worry about that.

I’ve asked for feedback on various things and often he doesn’t respond at all. When he does he changes details that are insignificant. For example changing a sentence that says the same thing in a different way.

All of this has meant I have struggled to know where I’m at or what he expects. I have a long service at this place well before him and I resent the prospect of leaving because he’s decided to treat me like this

I’m think the last point is key.

Im in a similar position in that I have long service and now I’m dealing with a manager who basically sends me a daily criticism usually in the morning. I work in a department where we are all qualified professionals but she isn’t and I think that has something to do with it, Im dealing with her ego on some level. I haven’t quite figured her out. But I have a sense there is something more to it.

If she put me on a PR I’d know in my hearts of hearts it wouldn’t be for the right reasons. Proving it though is difficult.

megthemum · 14/03/2025 19:46

I’ve been in a semi similar position, I was put on a PIP by the worst managers I have known in my entire career who weren’t even based in the same office as me, and all the points were ‘I believe Meg does not x, I feel Meg does x’ so I argued every point I didn’t agree with and had some removed. The management of the PIP involved a new starter who was (shock) based in the same office as me, she actually watched me do my job, wrote down the things I did (and I didn’t change a single thing!) and I passed it. It’s a shitty situation to be in and I’m sorry it’s happening to you x

Ritzybitzy · 14/03/2025 19:38

Gamecha · 14/03/2025 19:35

I’ve repeatedly asked for work since returning from maternity leave and been given very little. Despite being told it’s not my job to find work and that I didn’t need to worry about that.

I’ve asked for feedback on various things and often he doesn’t respond at all. When he does he changes details that are insignificant. For example changing a sentence that says the same thing in a different way.

All of this has meant I have struggled to know where I’m at or what he expects. I have a long service at this place well before him and I resent the prospect of leaving because he’s decided to treat me like this

Maternity or sick leave?

AllyDally · 14/03/2025 19:37

My employee disagreed with everything in her PIP, it was watered down somewhat also as to have been 100% honest about her ability would have been devastating to her and I didnt want that. I truly wanted her to achieve her targets but she basically blamed everything on everyone else, including me, and took no responsibility at all for it, so therefore she didnt improve, and eventually ended up with formal warnings etc.

If you are able to meet the targets they set you and you have a decent HR dept then no reason it has to be the beginning of the end but clearly I am in the minority here.

Gamecha · 14/03/2025 19:35

I’ve repeatedly asked for work since returning from maternity leave and been given very little. Despite being told it’s not my job to find work and that I didn’t need to worry about that.

I’ve asked for feedback on various things and often he doesn’t respond at all. When he does he changes details that are insignificant. For example changing a sentence that says the same thing in a different way.

All of this has meant I have struggled to know where I’m at or what he expects. I have a long service at this place well before him and I resent the prospect of leaving because he’s decided to treat me like this

OP posts:
BoxOfCats · 14/03/2025 19:23

I have an employee who is on a PIP. He just won't accept the feedback for what it is.

He even asked to have direct feedback from key stakeholders as he didn't believe me that the feedback I'd given him was accurate (and was going around telling people I was on a "witch hunt"). So I set up meetings with various people individually and he and I both sat there while they gave him the same feedback. Do you think he accepted then that he had a performance issue? No he bloody didn't!

He seems to think I have something against him, I absolutely don't but his inability to do his job is impacting the whole team so I have to deal with it, even though it's taking me a huge amount of time and energy to performance manage him.

I would ask yourself if you really want to go through with this, especially if your manager doesn't think you're doing a good job. Why would you want to persist in staying? In your shoes I would accept the PIP then start looking for another role to move onto as quickly as possible.

Candledrip · 14/03/2025 19:18

@MushMonster this is misinformed advice. As PP days a new union won’t take on a pre existing issue such as this

Punishmentforthis · 14/03/2025 19:17

IDontLikeMondays88 · 14/03/2025 16:48

Managers can and do use this as a means to getting rid of someone whose face doesn’t fit. It doesn’t necessarily mean the person is a bad employee

This. In my experience, it doesn’t matter how unjust and unreasonable it is, they will force you out.
I wouldn’t fight it as you will end up getting stressed about it and it won’t change the outcome.

Ritzybitzy · 14/03/2025 19:13

MushMonster · 14/03/2025 18:42

Sign up with a union. Gather paperwork like this: your review, reply to emails, thanks for work done.
D
Has ypur manager ever criticise any of your work?
Then send it to HR or request HR to be present for the PIP and raise the lack of corrections in the past. Your Union will be the best advisor on how to proceed.
You can raise a complaint against your manager if you think the issue is that you were off sick and there is any evidence. Again, a Union is the best place to ask.

Pointless advice. Unions won’t advise on pre existing issues.

Daisymae23 · 14/03/2025 19:12

If you don’t agree with the PIP, then you should have no problem with hitting the targets of the pip. Hit the targets and the pip is behind you.

do you agree with the targets that are being set are reasonable and achievable?

Fundays12 · 14/03/2025 19:06

I wouldn't recommend refusing to go on a PIP but I have done it once. However I could fully evidence that I had been subjected to sex discrimination (back from maternity leave and basically had no job up return to and was only given 2 pieces of work in 6 months despite begging for more). My complaint was serious enough to warrant a HR business partner travelling 160 miles the following day to deal with it. I never got pulled up as HR were horrified by my then managers behaviour (I later found out most of the staff were)

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 14/03/2025 19:01

blueshoes · 14/03/2025 18:15

Manager and HR-types who are familiar with PIPs, how common is it the employees who are (unfairly) put on PIPs paid to leave instead?

Is there any way OP can legitimately put herself in the best position for a settlement?

She mentioned she was off sick and a single parent. She also mentioned no performance issues were raised in her previous appraisals.

I haven't ever offered a settlement agreement to anyone and I genuinely wouldn't ever put someone on a PIP unfairly - I don't even know what people mean when they talk about someone's face "not fitting" tbh. If they can do the job well and collaborate effectively with others, I really don't care about their personality etc. We aren't at work to make friends.

I would only ever go down the PIP route if there were genuine issues that needed to be improved. It's way too much hassle otherwise. A PIP doesn't necessarily mean I want someone out...if they actually improve, then I'm more than happy for them to stay. I start the process wanting it to succeed and wanting to support. But if the employee gets all arsey about the PIP and goes into battle mode, then my own attitude will change and I'll just want them gone. Life is too short to tolerate that kind of negativity.

I'm confident that the processes that I follow are fair and reasonable, and that, if anything, I give people too many chances to turn things around, so why would I offer a settlement? Yeah, it would probably save me some work/aggro, but I don't actually like the idea of rewarding someone for being bad at their job and refusing to try to improve. And I absolutely wouldn't settle if they started trying to deflect from their own poor performance by turning it around and accusing me of bullying. If they wanted to test out their allegations in a tribunal, I would say "bring it on".

The only time I might pay someone to go away would be if they were generally cooperative, willing to try and improve but unable to for some reason. I would feel sorry for them in that situation, and I would want to try and help.

It is never personal for me until someone decides to make it personal. I am as kind as I possibly can be while still doing my job, and I bend over backwards to support people to get their acts together. But if they decide to make it adversarial, then the gloves are off and I will get rid.

MichaelandKirk · 14/03/2025 18:58

You cannot join a union and then immediately engage with them. Otherwise we would all be doing this!

Redcrayons · 14/03/2025 18:44

Everywhere I’ve worked a PIP is the first step towards being let go.

Get your CV in order and start looking for another role.

MushMonster · 14/03/2025 18:42

Gamecha · 14/03/2025 17:46

My last review said no performance issues, hopefully a pay rise this year etc. So it’s happened after I came back from being off sick. The man doesn’t like me, he’s made comments about my ability to work and be a single parent previously … said in a ‘caring’ way but clearly very judgmental.

Sign up with a union. Gather paperwork like this: your review, reply to emails, thanks for work done.
D
Has ypur manager ever criticise any of your work?
Then send it to HR or request HR to be present for the PIP and raise the lack of corrections in the past. Your Union will be the best advisor on how to proceed.
You can raise a complaint against your manager if you think the issue is that you were off sick and there is any evidence. Again, a Union is the best place to ask.

Ritzybitzy · 14/03/2025 18:38

Actual advice - they don’t have to provide you with a PIP. If they’re offering and you refuse that in itself becomes a potential issue. What I said above - you’re basically proving their point.

Ritzybitzy · 14/03/2025 18:36

Gamecha · 14/03/2025 15:53

@FortyElephants it would take me ages to explain why I don’t agree with it. But I am very firm in my view that this was my manager’s objective rather than any deficiencies in my work. I don’t have a union.

They’re inviting you to improve your performance. Refusal to engage that will absolutely prove their point.

AirborneElephant · 14/03/2025 18:25

I’m not assuming anything is wrong with the OPs performance. I’ve had first hand experience of grievance processes from both sides and can confidently say it makes no difference. If they want you out, then bar abject stupidity or gross discrimination then that’s what they will get. I’m sorry, it may be cynical but being in the right is no guarantee of a successful outcome here.

NotMeNoNo · 14/03/2025 18:24

I just mentioned a settlement agreement becuase in my experience of a person who went through several steps of the PIP, it was clear they were not going to improve, HR offered a sum of money to leave confidentially with a neutral reference. This is sometimes preferable to going all the way through the timeconsuming formal process.
There is no guarantee the OP's company or any would offer this though, I acknowledge.