To think if you can no longer afford school fees...

How many children in the UK are educated as a figure not a percentage?

"It will mainly be people who were planning to go private who will now not choose to."

Again, I don't think so, 15% is possibly not enough for those who were planning to, to change their minds, maybe those who were really stretched, but this will only be a tiny minority.

People will just plan their finances a little differently.

Haha - I love it how you think it is so easy to magic up another £3-4k per child per year. That money has generally already been taxed so earnings of c£7-8k per child per year. That is for a cheap private school and doesn’t include the lunches and transport that will likely also be taxed.

that’s not a small amount you know

I know its not a small amount.

But remember that the amount for the average fee will come to 2.7k, or 225 quid a month. Again, not small, BUT, people who were already spending 1.5K a month on fees, will probably not see it as that much and have some room for that in discretionary spending.

Even when it multiplies with extra children.

So it won’t then raise much money at all then? So why have it?

“People will just plan their finances a little differently” is exactly what Tory voters said about the bedroom tax and the child benefit cap. I don’t notice any massive improvement in the welfare budget that was generated by those policies, but it allowed some people to feel quite self-righteous about penalising others whilst making no overall gains or savings. Could it be that you’re falling for the same trick, only designed to make some voters feel self-righteous about penalising some other voters’ children, whilst it having no real effect on inequality or the overall tax take at all?

If you want to penalise a few kids of a few parents who are just slightly better off than you whilst feeling good about it, then at least own it. That’s your prerogative! Voters indulge in tribal politics to penalise others all the time. I had, however, thought better of Labour in this regard, and am disappointed that they are choosing virtue signalling over genuine progressive change (a hint about the general trajectory of the next government, maybe?)

But kidding yourself that it’s a great blow against privilege which will revolutionise the state education system is just wishful fantasy, however.

It will probably raise about as much money as is predicted, which will then be used in the education sector.

I think this sort of tax is actually one of the few left open in order to raise extra funds. The current tax level is the highest for decades, there is a cost of living crisis, and the reaction to any proposed changes in Income tax, IHT, CGT etc met with waves of vitriol and spite from those who it might effect ( and some who it won't) so that it isn't possible. If you think these threads have been bad for parental threats, then you will wait to see what happens when any tax increases are proposed.

I think painting it as spiteful and vindictive is inaccurate though.

That’s only really true for your public school parents - many of the lessor private school parents are not really in the earnings brackets that people are assuming. Of course it is a luxury but it’s one that over the last decade people have given up everything to afford (and not bloody sky tv) so there is no affordability left.

The evidence from the studies of household income seem to say different.

BUT

That 18k is only the average, and there will be good number of secondary schools that are lower fees. They will also have lower VAT.

For example a 10k per year one would attract 1500 PA extra, which is 125 a month.

I know there will be a very small minority of people who have absolutely stretched their budgets to cracking point, and it is very unfortunate for them, but it will certainly not be a majority. I don't think very many households at all will be privately educating that don't have any wiggle room in their budget for 28 pounds a week.

If my children were starting out, and I looked at the fees and the likely increase, I wouldn't be making that choice - not at this stage, anyway. Finding a way to make it work because you're committed now is a different thing. We're going to see a huge drop in numbers - especially at prep level - for day schools. The boarding schools and feeder preps will probably be fine, because they tend to be oversubscribed anyway. That's my prediction. I don't know where you teach, but the fundamental problem here, I believe, is that we're talking about a completely different set of schools, and a completely different demographic of parents. Unfortunately, there's no way of taxing one without taxing the other, even though they have little to do with each other.

But situations change.
My brother went to a private secondary at 13, as he was being beaten black and blue every day in the only 2 state secondaries in our town, his ASD was not being supported despite all my parents efforts and he was suicidal.
So my mum went and got a 2nd job to pay his £6000 (back in the 90's) school fees, and they borrowed from family, extended their mortgage. Because it was that or lose their child.
Not because they has aspirations of grandeur for him. But because they loved him. He now works as a gym instructor, so not exactly a 'toff'. But he is alive, and happy. Worth every penny.
After 3 years in that school my Dad got made redundant, we nearly lost our home, but as they said, they could get another house. But not another son.
The 20% increase would have been the final straw in having to remove him back to a school which was literally destroying him, which they should have left him in until they saved 150k. Which would have been never.

Some parents can afford the fees easily. And some do it to save their child.

@MyNameIsFine

That's you, and I think its fine if that is your position.

I think a lot of other people who are planning on educating their children privately will either just swallow the VAT when it comes to it, or save slightly more now.

As said, the increase means on an average day secondary, 225 a month, or 51 pounds a week. I know I keep putting it in these terms but this is how people think about money.

There are lots of children who are struggling in state schools and the parents do not have the resources to send them to private. They do things such as unenroll them, or battle for a part-time schooling place and out-of-school support.

There is a massive area between "private school" and "a sure death in a state school"

How many private secondaries only charge £10k per year? I don’t know of any and I have studied fees widely across the country.

You are wrong if you think this policy won’t stop many people selecting private education for their DC. It will, particularly at primary age. My DCs school has reduced their reception classes from 3 to 2 this year (i.e. a thirty per cent decrease). And that’s a big, successful all though private in an area in the SE that is seeing massive housing development. I’ve read about other schools reporting a 20% drop for admissions this September.

It's not just me! That's what we're trying to tell you. You think that because you've looked up a few statistics you know better than everybody else. The state primary, save up for secondary option is becoming ever more popular, especially for people who live in a middle class catchment area anyway. People who used private for older children, are keeping the younger ones in state longer and getting private tutors. Others started home schooling in lock down and didn't go back. It was already becoming unaffordable, and this is the nail in the coffin

We are swapping to state. DS will be taking a place. It's over subscribed but entry based on location and grades. No doubt some other child has missed out.

I was giving examples for the lower priced and smaller secondary schools ones that everyone appears to be so concerned about, rather than the higher priced.

@MyNameIsFine

MN appears to be full of schroedingers private school parent, both massively well paid/extremely wealthy and able to drop their hours instantly to cause massive shocks to the treasury and at the same time so poor that they live in deprived areas with terrible state schools and have stretched themselves to the absolute limit to pay private school fees and their budget has 0 flex in it.

So which is it?

You realise any single kind of incident could have added significant costs to your budgets right?

You’ve said it so well. It will only divide and take away opportunities from those who need them the most. Shame on Labour and on anyone who celebrates the spite of it all.

The answer is that there are a wide range of incomes at private schools. So the premier league footballer dad at my DC’s school is not going to be worried about a VAT increase but the state schools teacher parents probably will be. I’m not sure why that’s so difficult to understand.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, I don’t think that there would have been as much concern about the VAT policy amount private schools parents had it not been for the cost of living crisis. From a personal perspective, we have built it into our sums since it was first mooted in the 2019 election. Trouble is, a lot has happened since then. Mortgages, food, electricity, insurances etc have all gone up dramatically. Our outgoings have increased around £1200 - £1500 per month. For some people the VAT will be the final straw. I’ll find the money and have already started applying for new jobs. But for my friend who is a social worker, she can’t just change companies to get a decent pay increase.

This ^

Oh and you still haven’t provided any examples of a £10k per year secondary school. The small private school nearest to be charges £18 for senior - compared to £22k at my DC’s larger school. I have considered moving to different parts of the country and the cheapest that I could find were around £16k.

@Dibblydoodahdah — Lots of schools all over the country - prep and secondary - that charge 10-13k fees. My nephew goes to one in Derbyshire - obviously I don’t want to put the exact school, but a few Googles gives you many similar ones!

https://www.oakleighhouseschool.co.uk

https://www.towercollege.com/

https://stmarys.ac/

https://www.stpiranshayle.net/

https://heritageschool.org.uk/

There are loads of schools like this all over the country - at least as many as the 18k+ ones.

But on MN it seems to be one in the same, someone who has 46k available for school fees but couldn't possibly find the extra anywhere else. Who are these people that can afford to spend 11k more than the median household disposable income PA on fees but haven't got any kind of buffer zone?
I mean that's just bad financial planning to start with.

Lets be really honest here, most will find the money, those that haven't started yet will maybe reconsider, but those who view PE as a necessity will just change consumption patterns, slightly to save for it.

I don't know who said that it was becoming a trend, but the state primary followed by private secondary has always been a fairly common move, many, many people I know both from way back when as a child, and later as parent followed this route.

"Oh and you still haven’t provided any examples of a £10k per year secondary school"

I'm not going to scrabble around to get one, but people kept going on about he small, lower priced schools that would be badly effected as the parents really only just scraped the money together. Not spending the average fee for one child on secondary school, which is more than half the median household disposable income. I used the figure as being significantly lower than the average.

I actually think a lot of people have no idea what "average incomes" are, or just how much money you have to have to spend the average fee on one child. Assuming Year 8-13 it would be well over 100k in 6 years, the one DC fees you have mentioned would mean that you are spending 132k, that's nearly half of the average house price in the UK in 6 years! This is not average.

Yes people may not have expected the cost of living crisis, yes some people ( a minority) may have to make decisions on whether they continue. I truly don't believe it will be many, but I feel sorry for those that do.

I’m fully aware for prep. My own DC’s school charges £11k for pre-prep (and £14k for prep) but the previous poster was taking about secondary. The one you link to in Cambridge charges £15k for secondary.

Please do read further: of the ones above, the Cambridge one is £13k (against £20-26k for other day independents in the city); the Crosby one charges about £13k for senior; Tower College £10k for 11-16 and this one in Cornwall charges £7500 for Key Stage 3 and £7650 per annum for Key Stage 4 (up to 16).

There are many schools around the country like this: small private schools, some without sixth forms (and large areas of the country are 11-16 state as well); many are religious foundations, or with endowments that offer fee subsidies, or who cater to kids who have additional needs (and this is without factoring in special schools). I randomly chose areas of the country not in the Home Counties or SE, and just picked a few schools at random and immediately found many who aren’t charging anything remotely like £18k+. I could go and find more and more and fill up the thread with them, if you like?

You can fantasise that this policy is hurting the poshos who are crowding into Westminster and Benenden if you like, but the reality is that it’s actually more likely to affect the only child of a doctor in Cornwall who is paying for a little private school; or a working-class kid who gets a chunk paid by a bursary but whose parents can’t pay much more. Those are the people who added VAT will affect; not the people who can afford it anyway. As long as you are happy with that, fine. But those people aren’t the super rich and they’re likely shouldering a fair amount of the tax burden as it is.

The small private school near where I live charges £18k per year at senior. There are loads of pupils there who were previously in state schools and they have a high proportion of pupils with SEN. £18k is £1500 per month. That’s the going rate for day nursery round here. And, the same as day nursery, some people do struggle through for a fixed period of years.

And yes, I think that most existing private school parents will find the money. I have never said otherwise but 90% is most and if 10% drop out this policy raises no money.

I am fully aware of average incomes (and low incomes) thank you. I grew up in a low income family and I support my dad financially now that he is a pensioner. Do you mean to be so condiscending? I never said that I had an average income or that private school parents have an average income. But there is a big different between a state school teacher on £40-50k and a premier league footballer on £multi-millions. I know both.