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Discussion over private schools brings out illogical viewpoints, sheer hypocrisy and the worse traits in people?

555 replies

ByPeachJoker · 04/06/2024 23:17

First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.

As you can imagine, this is linked to the PMs debate just now, but having read a recent MN thread on a lady who wanted to know how she might be able to avoid paying VAT on school fees should Labour come into power, I was shocked at the vitriol thrown her way. As far as I could tell, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted to avoid the VAT but the majority of comments were coming from people who essentially felt like this lady was somehow getting her comeuppance, that she automatically deserved to suffer some form of penalty just by virtue of choosing to send her DC to a private school. She made a 'bad' choice and should suffer the consequences.

One comment was simply 'how about sending your kids to a state school like 93% of the population'. It completely disregards the fact that there is a child at the heart of this and that a fairly arbitrary tax change is a) going to lead to an additional cost for exactly the same thing and b) for many parents, this change will mean they cannot afford the fees and this may lead to a child's education and social environment being uprooted. I'm not here to necessarily discuss the actual fairness of VAT being imposed on private school fees but more that there is this automatic reaction by a majority of people whenever private schooling is discussed and that this reaction is rooted in nothing logical and is based on the worse of human emotions such that people ignore the fact that many parents are making a financial/lifestyle sacrifice for their children.

Much of it comes from this completely incorrect assumption that you must be wealthy to send your child to a school. I get the impression that many are misinformed and assume that most private schools are like Eton or Harrow and have fees in excess of £20k a year which really is not the case. I think the negativity comes down to the fact that it's people's children that are involved and so people naturally come to see parents who send their kids to private schools as paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair. Now I accept that there are a lot of people who simply could not afford private school fees BUT (and I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do.

Ultimately they might choose to spend their money on a more expensive car, a bigger house, a nicer holiday etc. I used to live in a new build housing development where people in one bedroom flats had brand new Range Rover Sports parked up outside. It was ridiculous that people who could seemingly 'only' afford a 1 bed flat were buying or leasing cars that were almost a third of the value of their home. However we let them make their choice and move on.

Now you can argue about the ethics of private school education but I think those who automatically view parents who send their kids to private school as people who should endure some form of suffering or deserve whatever is coming to them need to look at the hypocrisy they show when compared to their own lifestyle choices but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

OP posts:
CurlewKate · 05/06/2024 05:50

I don't think I can cope with another "if you don't like private education you're bitter/jealous/a champagne socialist thread. But I do have to point out, mildly, that Starmer bought his house long before he had children. When it was an area where many youngish professional couples bought houses.

Morph22010 · 05/06/2024 05:46

Pepsiisbetterthancoke · 05/06/2024 00:03

Nothing to do with lifestyle choices but more likely to be about believing that all children should get the same advantages during their education

It always go the same way, people who don’t send their children private are jealous of those that do - which is what OP is saying with their ridiculous lifestyle claim

I could afford it but would always choose not to. Nothing to do with my house, car or holidays but because I don’t agree with private education

But all children aren’t getting the same from a mainstream education, try telling that to the thousands of parents of children with Sen whose children are out of school or on part time timetables becuase their children don’t fit into the one size fits all current education system we have. Mine was lucky enough to get a place at a specialist school (state funded) but lots of children can’t, I know children who have been out of school for years and no one is bothered about them receiving the same advantages. There is a small, “cheap” private school down the road from us which has a high level of Sen children, generally ones without ehcps as they are so difficult to get and takes years and appeals. Its children like this that will be hardest hit by the policy as the super rich can just suck it up

ClonedSquare · 05/06/2024 05:45

@ByPeachJoker "Another crucial point is that private school fees at least through primary school are in many cases the same if not less than paying for full time nursery so when you're having to fork out a huge amount for childcare, it's not much to essentially decide that you will continue paying those fees in the form or private school instead of nursery."

Oh this is just fucking stupid and out of touch. Most working families are paying nursery fees, but for many it's literally breaking their budgets. Many take out loans to cover the costs, plenty of women (I say women because they're usually the lower earner/often working part time) aren't even earning enough to cover them. We're a high income family and it impacts our lifestyle massively to be paying them, never mind lower incomes.

It's beyond belief to say "you're already paying nursery fees, it's not much to decide to keep paying them for another SEVEN YEARS". Another seven years of nursery fees would kill most people.

Morph22010 · 05/06/2024 05:39

ByPeachJoker · 05/06/2024 00:03

I'm sorry but the whole avocado point trivialises a completely valid point. I see plenty of people on the school run/dropping kids off at state schools in cars that would cost in excess of £800 a month to lease and that is not far off private primary school fees. Those same people will criticise parents who then choose to put that money towards private education.

Another crucial point is that private school fees at least through primary school are in many cases the same if not less than paying for full time nursery so when you're having to fork out a huge amount for childcare, it's not much to essentially decide that you will continue paying those fees in the form or private school instead of nursery.

I do accept the point around parents complaining on a forum like this - it isn't going to resonate but my thread was not complaining but simply trying to call out what I see as the unfair response to parents who make the choice we do.

I don’t actually agree with vat on education but I disagree with both your points

  1. vat is charged on new cars and lease of cars so the person leasing a car for £800 a month will be paying alot more vat than someone spending their money on school fees.

  2. a lot of people can’t really afford nursery now but do so by various means such as one parent effectively working for nothing, borrowing the money and paying it back when child starts school etc. the idea being that both parents continuing working will be beneficial in the long run as regards careers, pensions etc. its a hurdle of a few years to get through for most not something they can do for an entire childhood

margymary · 05/06/2024 05:38

HelenaWaiting · 05/06/2024 03:35

I can't believe you made this thread, OP. What response were you expecting? Some observations:

We've heard from so many parents whose kids are in private education "but we're not rich, oh no, we make sacrifices.

Private education is morally indefensible.

People who send their children to private school are, by any reasonable measure, very wealthy. Most people don't care that they are wealthy, rather they are disgusted by the hordes of parents pretending not to be.

If I have to pay VAT on my annual holiday, you should pay VAT on your non-essentials.

Finally, you called the proposal an arbitrary tax. All taxation is arbitrary, it's the nature of the beast, but by kicking off about VAT, you're suggesting that people with a lower income should subsidise your child's education. You might want to think about that.

I noticed this too. Private school parents really don't want to subsidise other people's children. They will use the roads though.

Chickenuggetsticks · 05/06/2024 05:37

PuttingDownRoots · 04/06/2024 23:35

Eton fees are £50k per year
My local day school (Yorkshire) is 18k per year at Secondary. So not far off 20k.

It takes a pretty high income to have £1.5k spare monthly after tax, housing, transport bills etc.

I don't particularly care that people chose to pay. Its the best option for some children. Its their money.

I have a bigger problem with people who can't admit they use their high income and/or assets to move into high performing catchment but claim they would never pay for schooling.

Exactly, a poster a while ago claimed state school was fine because all her doctor/banker/phd friends sent their kids to one. I doubt they are living in a tower block with piss in the elevator are they?

Starmer himself has children in state schools…..in an area where house prices are astronomical 🙄.

Honestly if people are happy to pay for their own education/ healthcare etc whilst still contributing to everyone else’s education and healthcare through their taxes then it’s fine by me.

margymary · 05/06/2024 05:35

ByPeachJoker · 05/06/2024 00:38

No but you misunderstand the point as that was made in relation to someone else asking me about whether I think VAT should be charged on school fees.

I don't dispute it is a 'luxury' to have money to spend on private education in the same way that (seeing as everyone like to do this), it is a 'luxury' to have a car or spend £60 at the supermarket. What I'm saying is that for VAT purposes I don't see a distinction between private and state education - that we can disagree on happily but please don't conflate the two issues.

Oh dear. Maybe the kiddies do need private education.

CurlewKate · 05/06/2024 05:34

Education is not a luxury. Private education is. University is available on the same terms to anyone.

idontknowaboutyou · 05/06/2024 05:31

Private school is a valid choice for those who can afford it and actually saves state money. It makes sense that the rich don't access free services provided by government because they can afford to pay for them (twice- firstly in tax and secondly in cash)

Of cause the lower end earners of those who can afford private school are going to be impacted by is 20% hike . It may mean they can no longer afford to access it. This is a shame as it just means more cost to each local authority.

Luio · 05/06/2024 05:28

I do think that all the arguments for adding VAT to school fees also apply to University fees. I can’t see how anyone can agree to one without agreeing to the other. Does anyone think Labour will do this? How will they justify not doing this? University is also a luxury that gives you an advantage over other people. It would also raise a significant amount more tax.

DaisyHaites · 05/06/2024 05:27

I’m sure PP have said it, but unless you have a scholarship then it’s wildly out of touch to say you’re not wealthy but can afford to send your kids to private school.

And I say that as someone who with a bit of scrimping could send her children to private school. I am wealthy in comparison to the national average. I’m not a millionaire, but definitely wealthy enough to recognise that it’s a privilege.

It’s a great point that all of the alternatives you mentioned sacrificing (holidays, cars etc) are all VATable.

Mummyoflittledragon · 05/06/2024 05:23

My dd is at private school simply because she is unable to go to state. As is, she’s developed an eating disorder and wasting away. All to do with her medical condition. As such she is covered under the Equality Act. I am seeking help. Again needing to do that privately as the nhs isn’t listening to what she needs. This is the only way I can ensure one day she will be a productive member of society and not a shell.

I know it’s a luxury to be able to pay for these things and I hasten to add they are all from savings. I am far too ill to work and dh’s salary doesn’t cover everyday life as I am also a large financial burden with the treatment I need to be able to function. I also had to pay for surgery as I couldn’t be guaranteed the specialist surgeon I needed on the nhs and would have been given the alternative again, which already failed once. No way was I going to allow someone to make another large incision in my stomach without getting it right. For reference my incision is now 12 inches.

So yes, the VAT situation really pisses me off.

HelenaWaiting · 05/06/2024 03:35

I can't believe you made this thread, OP. What response were you expecting? Some observations:

We've heard from so many parents whose kids are in private education "but we're not rich, oh no, we make sacrifices.

Private education is morally indefensible.

People who send their children to private school are, by any reasonable measure, very wealthy. Most people don't care that they are wealthy, rather they are disgusted by the hordes of parents pretending not to be.

If I have to pay VAT on my annual holiday, you should pay VAT on your non-essentials.

Finally, you called the proposal an arbitrary tax. All taxation is arbitrary, it's the nature of the beast, but by kicking off about VAT, you're suggesting that people with a lower income should subsidise your child's education. You might want to think about that.

Goldenbear · 05/06/2024 03:05

ByPeachJoker · 05/06/2024 00:03

I'm sorry but the whole avocado point trivialises a completely valid point. I see plenty of people on the school run/dropping kids off at state schools in cars that would cost in excess of £800 a month to lease and that is not far off private primary school fees. Those same people will criticise parents who then choose to put that money towards private education.

Another crucial point is that private school fees at least through primary school are in many cases the same if not less than paying for full time nursery so when you're having to fork out a huge amount for childcare, it's not much to essentially decide that you will continue paying those fees in the form or private school instead of nursery.

I do accept the point around parents complaining on a forum like this - it isn't going to resonate but my thread was not complaining but simply trying to call out what I see as the unfair response to parents who make the choice we do.

It is not just that though, where you live is significant to affordability. Our local private school is 3x the one nearest my Mum in the south midlands. It’s the same with housing and cars. On our combined income we could afford private school in that area, a flashy car and a big house but we don’t live there so no choice. It is irrelevant anyway as there are good to very good state provisions.

MigGirl · 05/06/2024 02:31

@DdraigGoch
So you conveniently forget, to pay your electricity and gass bill, your pension contributions, your house and content insurance you probably have students loans paying back at 9% each if your earing that much as well.

The only people who I know who have done it have either been left inheritance money, actually ring-fence for private education. Or earn significantly more then that.

Led921900 · 05/06/2024 02:30

DdraigGoch · 05/06/2024 02:17

@Led921900 That is equivalent to a salary of £40k a year and even if there are two adults I don’t know what household on £80k a year can afford private schooling regardless if they drive an old mondeo and never take a holiday!
Take home pay on a £40k income (assuming that there's a student loan to pay back too) would be around £31k. So £62k for a couple.

If you take out a £250k mortgage over 25 years, with an interest rate of 5% then you'll be paying £18k/year. Yes, you might struggle to find a house below £300k in the South East, but not everyone lives in one corner of England. £44k left to spend.

On average a person spends £1793 on groceries and £530 on eating out. So for a family of three we'll say £7k/year on food. £37k left to spend.

Maybe £10k/year on holidays. £27k left to spend.

I consider cars to be an optional luxury, though I realise that I'm in a minority. So let's assume that they're a two-car family (though one-car families are more common). £7k/year. £20k left.

Council tax £2k. £18k left.

I know that life has other costs, but I think that I've covered all of the big ones.

Looking at a local school that covers nursery through to sixth form, fees range from £10,800 for early years, through to £17,400 at the upper end. That would be tight, but going down to one car and going camping in France would be enough to make it manageable if you only have one child. In many cases the cost is subsidised by grandparents who have paid off their mortgages.

Average family size has 2 children so doubt the private fees for both to attend since you’re using averages. And in fact if you’re using averages you need to go way down, from ONS. “In the financial year ending (FYE) 2022, median household income in the UK before taxes and benefits was £35,000, increasing to £38,100 after taxes and benefits”.

Now do your sums!

Tbh the figures are by the by, given the percentage of the uk population in private education it certainly seems to be limited to a minority of wealthy families. Whether they consider themselves wealthy is a different matter.

TheShellBeach · 05/06/2024 02:24

ByPeachJoker · 05/06/2024 01:53

Do you have any contribution to the arguments presented or do you just wade in at the end of threads in a failed attempt to rile people up where you disagree with them? 🙂

I thought you were going to bed
Grin

coupdetonnerre · 05/06/2024 02:20

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

DdraigGoch · 05/06/2024 02:17

@Led921900 That is equivalent to a salary of £40k a year and even if there are two adults I don’t know what household on £80k a year can afford private schooling regardless if they drive an old mondeo and never take a holiday!
Take home pay on a £40k income (assuming that there's a student loan to pay back too) would be around £31k. So £62k for a couple.

If you take out a £250k mortgage over 25 years, with an interest rate of 5% then you'll be paying £18k/year. Yes, you might struggle to find a house below £300k in the South East, but not everyone lives in one corner of England. £44k left to spend.

On average a person spends £1793 on groceries and £530 on eating out. So for a family of three we'll say £7k/year on food. £37k left to spend.

Maybe £10k/year on holidays. £27k left to spend.

I consider cars to be an optional luxury, though I realise that I'm in a minority. So let's assume that they're a two-car family (though one-car families are more common). £7k/year. £20k left.

Council tax £2k. £18k left.

I know that life has other costs, but I think that I've covered all of the big ones.

Looking at a local school that covers nursery through to sixth form, fees range from £10,800 for early years, through to £17,400 at the upper end. That would be tight, but going down to one car and going camping in France would be enough to make it manageable if you only have one child. In many cases the cost is subsidised by grandparents who have paid off their mortgages.

MigGirl · 05/06/2024 02:02

Lifesd · 05/06/2024 01:38

I’ve also no skin in the game but it is an ugly debate. No one person deserves a better education over another but my perception is that it is another attack on the squeezed middle by the left. As usual those at the top will avoid any impact and this could potentially make things worse for poorer kids if more people move to areas of “good school” raising house prices in desirable areas and ultimately making good education a provision for the well off anyway.

But it isn't, as only 7% go private the so called squised middle like us can't afford private schools and haven't been able to for some time. Unless you live somewhere where schools give substantial bursaries. Also maybe the fees where we are, are to high as well.

ByPeachJoker · 05/06/2024 01:53

TheShellBeach · 05/06/2024 01:47

Which, translated, means:

"I'm annoyed because so many people have seen through me and the real premise of this thread"

Do you have any contribution to the arguments presented or do you just wade in at the end of threads in a failed attempt to rile people up where you disagree with them? 🙂

OP posts:
Justrolledmyeyesoutloud · 05/06/2024 01:51

Sparsely · 05/06/2024 00:36

To answer your questions:

  1. Tax avoidance isn't an option for poor people, why should it be an option for rich? As such, tax avoidance is antisocial behaviour and so community doesn't like it. We need everyone to pay their way and at least to be a little ashamed if they try not to.

  2. if you have chosen to reject your community schooling, can you be surprised if your community then rejects you? Whether you intend it or not there's an implicit criticism of what they are doing for their children in your choices. That it's not good enough for your child.

  3. I think objectively if you can afford private school, you are wealthy. YOu'd have to be in the top earners. If you can afford 2 kids at private school (say, £32k a year) you'd need a household income of £65k minimum. So that's top 12%.. More wealthy than 88% of the country.

And there you are with your explicit criticism "parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school " . The average household income is £35k so there is no choice to make a sacrifice for the majority of people. They have no choice.

You also assume that everyone who could afford their child to private school would. I can and I wouldn't send my son to a private school. I don't get the people there and they don't get me. I don't hate them but I don't share their values. I don't really want my son to be like them. I think they many of them are a bit entitled. A bit selfish.

  1. Nice holiday and Range Rovers are luxuries that all have VAT payable on them. Unlike your school fees which is also a luxury.

  2. As others have said, I don't think you have a grip on the real suffering which is happening in this country.

There are measures the schools could take to cut costs so as not to pass the VAT rises on to parents. I imagine there will be mergers and bigger class sizes. Reductions in breadth of courses offered. You know, the sorts of economies state schools have to do and are good enough for the rest of us.

I also think if you value it that much, you'll find a way to fund it. You'll refinance the house or ask for a raise or get a better paid job. You'll rent out a room or start a side hussle.

Absolutely agree with all of these points

Amanitacae · 05/06/2024 01:50

Ok night Nadine

MumChp · 05/06/2024 01:48

This reply has been deleted

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

@coupdetonnerre

In Denmark you go to free state school or a private school. Private schools aren't free.

TheShellBeach · 05/06/2024 01:47

ByPeachJoker · 05/06/2024 01:43

You have very limited resources to reach that conclusion but that fact that I will be voting for a Labour government is enough to show that I'm not voting for my sole interests. Obviously you don't have to believe that in which case I bid you goodnight.

Which, translated, means:

"I'm annoyed because so many people have seen through me and the real premise of this thread"

Swipe left for the next trending thread