To think that most company menopause policies are an absolute joke?

And if he brushes it all under the carpet, THEN you go to HR.

That's what the policy is for.

But you haven't even attempted to talk to him about it and then concluded the policy was useless when you didn't give him or the policy a chance to help you.

Have only read OPs posts and a few of the earlier replies. I moved to a new company (FTSE 250) last year and have been impressed with how open they are about menopause and the impacts on work

There have been educational talks on what it is, how it generally manifests, treatments available etc. There were also similar talks for managers on how to help direct reports

We have access to specific medical support around menopause as part of our private health over which is one of our benefits

I am not going through it yet but starting to have some peri-menopausal symptoms. I have been open and honest with my boss but it helps that I have known him for years as worked together in 2 other companies so we have a relationship that means we can be open.

I don’t think it’s taking anything away from equality to have more understanding and practical ways to support women at this time of their life. We fought for rights around pregnancy, why is it wrong to have rights around menopause? Both have impacts on the body that you need to make reasonable adjustments for

He doesn't know anything about OP struggling with the menopause!

She hasn't raised it with him because she doesn't want to talk to a man about it.

He could respond brilliantly for all we and OP know but he hasn't even been given a chance to.

Lord knows that I know it isn't easy, but I don't like the idea that a manager can dodge dealing with a managee's issue because they're a middle aged man.

My forty-something male manager tried to palm me off on one of his other subordinates on matters relating to my pregnancy, but I'm not her responsibility just because we're both pregnant females.

It's part of his job to enact policies. A lack of confidence/capability on his part shouldn't become someone else's problem (and I have had hugely sympathetic middle aged male managers before who had not issue dealing with problems!).

And this is the difference in opinion. There is a policy. The op simply needs to discuss with her manager what reasonable adjustments she requires and why. This is reasonable. She has not done this.

the point women are making is we don’t all need this. Millions neither need it or wish it.

it sets women back due to its blanketing of all menopausal women. We do not wish to be seen as we are unable to do our jobs and need adjustments because we are menopausal. Or because we are having a period. We want it for the specific issue for the specific woman and for the rest of us to not be treated like we hit 50 and need help to do our jobs . That’s what we risk setting women back.

no one disagrees the op should be able to access support , that’s not what’s being said. At all. But it should be no different to any other employee who needs support due to severe insomnia or anxiety or whatever. They all need help .

pregnancy is different, nearly all women will need time off for appts, it’s for a short period of 9 months, the vast majority of women do not need work adjustments due to menopause which can last many years. So they don’t wish to be treated like they do, but for the women who do then they should be able to access support.

just like men won’t want a blanket prostrate policy where they all get told they will need to use the loo more often and everyone should be aware they may not be able to stay in a meeting for more than a few mins as once they hit 50 they will need to go toilet regularly and need support.

My final comment on this subject is that if men went through childbirth, periods and menopause there sure as hell would be comprehensive support in place for them.

Like anything in life, some women sail through with no issues others have a torrid time of it.

People talking about reasonable adjustments - I recently had to take 2 weeks off work for a pregnancy related issue. Because of laws in place and a policy my pay was protected and it didn’t affect my sickness record. Without this there just wouldn’t have been a ‘reasonable adjustment’. The company rules are pretty black and white. I would essentially have been discriminated against for being a pregnant woman. I just don’t understand how you can say these policies sideline women when they help us be equal. Like I said before how is suffering in silence when your male colleagues aren’t making you equal to them? You aren’t. Having policies in place - yes even a menstruation policy where you can have access to sanitary products, helps women to stay in work and achieve in work.

OP hasn't even mentioned it to her manager, she went directly to HR to ask what reasonable adjustments could be made and they quite rightly said she needed to work that out with her manager. But OP doesn't want to talk to him about the menopause so OP is saying what's the point of having a menopause policy? When I'd guess the policy says reasonable adjustments can be made, discuss with your line manager.

Reasonable adjustments are completely individual to each person and each role. There isn’t a blanket list of reasonable adjustments that HR can give her because what's reasonable in one role may be unreasonable in another.

Then they need support for the symptoms they have just like the woman (or man) with depression/rheumatism/caring responsibilities/period problems/ a bad back or anything else. We need policies that support anyone with their specific needs, why should menopause be treated as some special case? Do other issues not matter? Should we have specific policies for any condition ever thought of?

For anyone interested in what good support for women suffering from debilitating peri menopause and menopause symptoms looks like. This is a really good piece you could use to inform a discussion with HR. https://theconversation.com/how-to-design-menopause-leave-policies-that-really-support-women-in-the-workplace-209282?utmmedium=email&utmmcampaign=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20September%2013%202023%20-%202734527646&utmcontent=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20September%2013%202023%20-%202734527646+CIDD3772e3b83bb45c03405c11d99375163b&utmsource=campaignnmonitoruk&utmmterm=How%20to%20design%20menopause%20leave%20policies%20that%20really%20support%20women%20in%20the%20workplace

I think there may be two separate issues you need to tackle

First - 4 day week. Have you agreed with your Manager a scaled back workload and objectives to ensure you are being assessed against the work volume you are being paid for. Make sure you are being assessed at targets that are 80% of previous ones.

Second - menopause, you have to be your own advocate, your manager probably won’t have a clue. What would actually make a difference to you? Later starts? More working from home, longer lunch break so you can have a nap? Think about what would make a difference then go and ask your manager for a referral to HR/OT to discuss the following reasonable adjustments in-line with the menopause policy.
Think also about what you can do to help yourself. I am mid 50s in a high pressure industry. I find I have to be a lot more organised and write more notes etc so I am not just relying on my brain. I am reducing clutter in my life and my work and trying to systematise as much as I can.

Like others I am slightly concerned that menopause could be used as an excuse to marginalise older women workers but there does need to be a common sense approach. In my view it needs to be viewed as a health issue not a women’s issue.

I am mid 50s
I work in a male dominated industry
Before menopause, I was pretty even tempered
Now I have no patience for xxxx
I have experienced a variety of symptoms including sweats, insomnia, skin crawl for a few years etc
Now I have zero tolerance for other people in the team getting away with everything !

However, as far as I can see there is absolutely nothing that my work place can do to make my life better at work. There has been a company wide memo.

What exactly are you expecting your company to do for you ?
Allow you extra days off sick ?

I have had to "keep calm & carry on"

No, we're not all the same. But if we want to be taken seriously, we just need to crack on with it. If there is something really debilitating then - like a man - we need to consult a medical professional and take whatever steps we can to put it right.

You don't find many self-employed women using periods or the menopause as a reason to work less.

I am lobbying my work to bring in a miscarriage and fertility policy, they are so obsessed with menopause policy etc. miscarriage far more warrants a policy, it’s a traumatic and life changing experience

Me to. What I hate more is menstruation policies. All this stuff is setting women back at work.

I agree. If you are unfortunate and experience really debilitating symptoms then you need to ask
for reasonable adjustments, but all this ‘awareness’ just gives a mechanism for women to be sidelined ‘legitimately’. Many women experience only mild, temporary issues .

Right. Anyone else pretty much over how MN has become a place where instead of trying to help and support posters, who are usually women, posters now fall all over themselves to ridicule, mock, and deride those asking for help? On literally any topic.

I’m in similar position with menopause. I’m looking for work at the moment and think I’ll need to take part time or a much less stressful position/lower paid due to menopause symptoms. It’s not ideal but needs must. Brain fog, insomnia all sorts and hrt doesn’t solve it all and it’s hard v hard.
4 days I don’t think works I’m looking for 3 days part time…or a lower level job 😏

@JenniferAnistonsHair2023 , i hope you're not too bruised from this thread, some posters have been brutal but there's probably a grain of truth in every one. Your problem is your manager, he has no awareness and sounds like he doesn't want to know. And you presumably feel awkward discussing this with someone who stand behind a policy they can't even pay lip service to.

So what's the answer?? I actually don't know. We seem to be the generation who will pave the way for 20 somethings to have an easier time of all this...hopefully 🤞
But in the meantime, you have discovered hrt isn't a magic pill and workplaces (and mumsnet) don't necessarily give you the support you are craving just now. Unless you have the energy and commitment to meet your boss head on, its going to be a difficult road to climb.

I wish you luck and hope other posters with better knowledge than me help you here.

My fundamental problem is that I don't have a manager who I feel I can approach about this stuff. I'm uncomfortable talking about it with someone who just doesn't get it. I've lost all confidence at work

If you can't/won't/feel uncomfortable talking about it then how can it get resolved? Everyone experiences the menopause differently so you need to be specific about what you what/need because a blanket company policy can't be tailored to the needs of individuals.

They survived by taking valium. My mother's generation in particular were dosed up to the eyeballs with it.
My mil symptoms were so bad that she never left the house again from the age of about 50 and couldn't even go to her own son's wedding

You can add to that dysmenorrhea - women who think it is just a few cramps while others are passing out in pain, often with undiagnosed conditions such as endometriosis or adenomyosis.

It’s clear this is a very contentious subject.

a lot of women feel, as evidenced by the thread, there should be no special allowance made for “all menopausal women” emphasising the word all.

just like there should not ne for all women on their period. It sets us back in the workplace where employers may think we get to a certain age and can no longer perform as expected in our jobs and we all need help or allowances made for us.

but that doesn’t mean we feel that there should be no special allowance for any menopausal woman.

what we do feel is if an individual woman is suffering with certain issues , ( plenty do, but millions dont). Then there should be help available. But that should be no different to if you’ve issues at any other time.

so if you suffer from anxiety then there should be both medical support from your gp and if you need it an adjustment at work. Same for insomnia. Or any other symptom some one is struggling with so much they need both medical support and adjustments at qork

The issue is saying all women need this. And focusing on all menopausal women. Just like we don’t all need time off when we have a period. But some do. We don’t all need it for menopause, and we don’t all want it and we do not wish to be singled out in the workplace that we hit 50 we are now a performance risk who requires special treatment.

tnats the issue. So the op needs to follow policy and explain what symptoms she is receiving medical treatment for, what impact it has on her and what reasonable adjustments she requires for that to her manager. It’s a reasonable first step.

yes that’s going to be hard if he’s just given her a poor review and stated she’s underperforming to immediately go back and say it’s because of the menopause and she needs reasonable adjustments to continue, I understand her reticence there, but she will need to do this. Detailing it on an email is a good first step, copying in hr and then setting up a meeting to discuss it with her manager.

i wish her the best of luck and hope whatever she’s requesting from her employer she is granted.

Will the OP's insomnia or anxiety get better? From an HR point of view, if an employee can't perform their role long term, that is an issue.

This is part of why meno policies are needed - lots of companies have policies where if you have more than 5 separate absences in a year, it triggers investigation. This shouldn't happen if you're known to be pregnant or have a disability, and menopause would normally also be exempted in places with a policy.

Women of menopause age are one of the biggest demographics in the workplace. Those who suffer debilitating symptoms, which can include insomnia, anxiety, brain fog, may end up quitting, with employers losing all that experience and knowledge, and then it becomes an economic problem, and people do care about money.