the "don't have kids if u can't afford them" mentality...

If you just want to keep pumping out a pyramid scheme of more people, we will run out of natural resources too.
We have a horrendous problem with overpopulation

I agree entirely with this.

Yes if the birth rate falls dramatically, we will have a problem with too few working age problem to take care of the elderly.

But this will be a temporary (one or two generation) problem while the larger older generations are still with us.

Far better to deal with that temporary problem and slowly adjust to a new lower population than say the solution is to keep producing more and more people.

And as a pp says I really hope we will stop keeping people alive long after they are no longer getting enjoyment out of life. I’m not sure how many people that applies to however so I’m not sure it’s a solution for demographic imbalance (and I think saying so may make people think it would be misused).

its more sustainable

a western child uses way more resources than one in the third world

if you want to reproduce you like a rabbit you should be taxed accordingly

@oiltrader

population reduction is needed to save the planet. people who decide against children should be given a financial incentive for this

Almost every European county now has below replacement rates of reproduction. Why should be sterilise ourselves because people thousands of miles away are having too many children.

@EmmaH2022

We have a horrendous problem with overpopulation

We have BELOW REPLACEMENT RATE fertility in this country. The average rate of children is 1.6 per couple. Because in Africa women have on average 8+ children we should all sterilise ourselves?!

no one has children to benefit others

I love when childless people try to martyr themselves that they’re “doing it for the planet” you don’t want a kid, that’s fine, but don’t pretend it’s to save the planet 😂

That's a new one. I didn't realise you needed money to love, nurture and provide emotional support.

What correlation are you thinking of where finances relate to how much love you can give to someone?

I know of some parents who try to show their love by buying things for their kids but that's not really what we're talking about surely?

population reduction is needed to save the planet. people who decide against children should be given a financial incentive for this

Of course it isn't completely distinct. It won't be a perfect correlation but there will definitely be some correlation. How ridiculous to think otherwise.

@SoapboxJudges

Absolutely. Can you imagine if people decided for your parents and deemed them too poor to have had six children. Mediaeval.

You're right that the biggest curse on children is a lack of love, nurturing and support. This is completely distinct from money and many middle/upper class parents are 100% guilty of this.

This too.

How can you «cut your cloth accordingly» when it is not sufficient before you start cutting?

I meant this ☝️

And to the poster who pointed out the inequalities in Denmark : I agree.
the Scandinavian countries have their issues.

Sadly they are modeling societal and political changes on the US and UK, and I vehemently disagree with these changes!
It was a concerted effort in the 1950’s, -60’s and 70’s, often across political parties, with people working very hard to write and implement rules and policies that would benefit the majority.
now there seems to be a concerted effort to dismantle it all bit by bit.

We certainly have a much bigger gap between rich and poor that has been growing steadily over the last 20 yrs. But it benefits noone in the long run.

to say you should only have children if you can afford it, when a staggering amount of the population in the UK cannot afford basic housing BECAUSE of systemic failure, doesn’t make sense.

@MermaidCheeks it sounds as if you are saying that you are breeding a generation of care workers! Don't you have more ambition for your children? Nothing wrong with being a care worker but you know what I mean - low salary, bad working conditions etc. Have less children and focus on raising them to improve on the benefit culture.

@TSIFT, oh, the ‘in other countries’ thing again - we in the U.K. are so selfish, and uncaring, etc.

We used to have friends in Mumbai (Indians) and I once mentioned this popular complaint to the woman - I.e. that ‘in other countries’ people invariably look after their own. She said it was rubbish. Her own very elderly mother (with dementia) was cared for in her own home many miles away by two live-in carers. As she pointed out, such arrangements were far cheaper and easier to organise in India than they would be in the U.K. And she added that this sort of thing was common.

Might add that a dd was working some years ago in Cambodia. In a poor rural village she once witnessed the care of an elderly grandmother with dementia. The woman was also incontinent. She was tied to a chair outside all day, to stop her wandering off and getting lost, or having accidents in the house, and was hosed down outside once a day.

It was evidently they only way they could cope, when no alternative was available.

In some cultures, where there is always a large extended family nearby - so often not the case in the U.K. - I dare say care of the elderly is easier, but who invariably does the lion’s share of it? The women, 99% of the time, I bet. But what if those women needed to work, to help pay the bills?

i don’t think only the rich should have children, but overall I guess my opinion falls somewhere in the middle of the two extreme. You generally do have to cut your cloth according to your means, and if having more than one or two children will push your family into poverty then you really should consider prioritizing the family you already have before adding more.

and there’s nothing wrong with deciding to wait on children until you can provide them with the lifestyle you want to provide them with (holidays, clubs etc). Most people don’t actually aspire to a wholly utilitarian existence, and I’m not one to think that struggling when you don’t need to is a particularly noble endeavor.

Kowtows!

@turbonerd

Thanks

Sorry you had to leave the UK but glad to hear you've been looked after. I agree that this country needs some serious reform but sadly our government cow tows to big corporations and the rich.

Totally agree with this. I think the vast majority do. The problem comes when it's a specific mum/dad/Gran in question rather than a generic group of old people. Look at the covid lockdown response.... not even sociopath BJ could stick to the natural order because it was political suicide. Hence all that drama & effort to save the 80+ yr olds from dying. Removing even more of their dignity by not allowing visitors etc instead of allowing families to make choices that actually 95yo Gran would prefer to see her children and if she catches covid then so be it.
The rest of us will be paying for it for decades.

@DottyPeacock

Whilst it may seem like I'm gushing about Denmark, Sweden etc. I'm not at all and appreciate that they're not utopian countries and have their own problems. Nowhere is perfect and they don't necessarily need to be. However, the approach to capitalism can be changed and the size of country is largely irrelevant. The USA just has a "fuck you" attitude to people in general so you simply cannot argue that population size is a factor.

Sorry but the USA doesn't even give women maternity leave. That's seriously messed up. They hated the idea of Obama Care as most Americans just don't want to look after the poor.

Finland pioneered the Housing First homeless program AFAIK and have almost eliminated homelessness. The USA has dabbled in it but there are people actively willing it not to work.

I simply don't understand how you can't see that the fabric and quality of a society shapes our attitudes towards the system and others.

There are numerous women here who have been let down by the UK system in all areas of health, finance and welfare. I can pretty much guarantee that their attitudes would be more positive if the government looked after them properly.

And yes, minimum wage and tax thresholds need raising.

I think there is a massive difference between having one or maybe two children and not being 100% financially secure or being creative to pay for them and having more than that with no means to fund them?

@Lunar270
a voice of reason, finally.
i was getting worried reading this thread.

the system for work and childcare can be vastly inproved by the UK government; subsidised to a much higher degree so that people (mainly women) can choose to enter the workforce and make their own money.
the minimum wage must be raised and there should be a cap on the higher earners, to level out the inequalities in income. I am not advocating communism by the way. But a less polarised society.

I was shocked when I realised that in the UK I would go in minus continuing working once my child was born. One of many shocking discoveries of how a so-called civilised and rich country operates.

it is primitive, CAUSES poverty ad infinitum and, as this thread shows, turns people against eachother.

And have no fear; I did not like it so I went back home. 😁
I have 3 DC, one with severe disabilities, and the state in my country funded my re-education and housing for 4 yrs so I could be able to work, AND subsidises childcare so that I now can work in a decently paid job (80% covers our needs very comfortably).
if I had stayed in the UK I would have been stuck. And people would have said I should not have had my last child 🤷🏽‍♀️

(mind you, I did start re-training with the OU and would have done everything in my power to have a job that could fit around my disabled child if I had stayed in the UK)

my point being: it is political, systemic change that is needed. A re-evaluation of what society values, what is important for a good life, equality - there is only surface equality in the UK. The money is definitely there.

otherwise the serpent will devour its own tail.

Well it is when you look at it from that perspective but from a different perspective that’s exactly how society (any society) has always functioned. We replenish society by providing new members to continue the work needed (whether that’s basic survival or economic success).

Education is part of the same thing. We don’t educate our children on mass for the simple love of learning and knowledge, it’s to ensure that everyone has a basic enough level of education that society can operate on a higher level than say, 200 years ago. Pros and cons are obvious but society has shifted with technology and pursuit of wealth.

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?

This is a pretty fucked up way to look at children, like women are just giving birth to slaves to be looked after later in life. Handmaid's tale esque