Page 4 | the "don't have kids if u can't afford them" mentality...

MermaidCheeks · 2022-08-06T13:23:35+00:00

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm? If only those who could *really afford* to have kids had them - a decreasing well-off demographic -we'd be even more fucked than we already are. Immigration is not a long-term solution when 80% of elderly are going to be spread across low and middle-affluent countries by 2050, either. Every country is going to need their own citizens. Instead of resenting people who need their wages topped-up by the government in order to afford having a couple of kids - maybe embrace those who are making sacrifices to have kids at all, especially in the face of the overwhelming decrease in value that society and successive governments have placed on the role of raising children.

DangerouslyBored · 15/08/2022 09:03

ilyx · 07/08/2022 14:47

The people on this thread are implying that having a child is bad and they’re somehow morally superior for not having one, when the only reason they aren’t having one is purely because they don’t want one. It has ZERO to do with the planet. If overnight they suddenly became desperate for a child they’d have one.

👏🏼 👏🏼 👏🏼

absofreakinlutely

DangerouslyBored · 15/08/2022 08:58

Weefreetiffany · 07/08/2022 16:53

From reading the replies it seems like the people who don’t want kids come across as more selfish. The general attitude is to protect their extended adolescence by any means possible. Of course you don’t care if society collapses if you don’t have a vested interest in the future of that society. The environment will be fine, it’s whether we can still exist in it that is the current crisis. The bees and icecaps dont care about us, we observe and care about them in their relation to us. It’s naive to think otherwise and believe the people having kids are solely to blame.

I agree with this. I hear a lot of child free people stating that they don’t care about the environment due to not having a vested interest in its future, ie not having kids. Those I know who have children are, on the whole, a lot more environmentally conscious. This will of course be vehemently denied by the child free, but it’s my experience.

Nothappyatwork · 15/08/2022 08:56

antelopevalley · 15/08/2022 01:59

Yes get rid of all those elderly and disabled people by killing them.

There is absolutely no way I am lining the corporate pockets or anyone’s pockets for that matter sat in a chair pissing myself on able to eat unaided watching everything that I worked for disappear at the rate of a grand a week.

humans are just like any other animal, breed to ensure the survival of the species and I quite like to make sure that the ones I’ve bred will have a better life than me not a worst one.

Artificially prolonging my life is a ridiculous suggestion when your numbers up your numbers up.

DangerouslyBored · 15/08/2022 08:31

Harmonypuss · 08/08/2022 06:12

My mindset regarding having children may not be very popular but I do agree that if someone can't support themselves without state financial help, they shouldn't be making their situation worse by adding children into the mix.
I have 2 sons who are now mid 20s and early 30s. I was married when I had them and in a reasonably paid job, as was my husband.
As we both worked f/t, we had to have childcare and had to pay for it, there was none of this 'free x hours of childcare'.
The marriage failed and I ended up raising the boys singlehandedly without any financial assistance from their father, family or the state.
I am also disabled but managed to hold down my job until my youngest was 15, at which point I was made redundant, my health had deteriorated and I found it necessary to claim benefits.
But I'd paid for all of the pre-school, out of school hours and holiday clubs for both of them before I needed to claim benefits.
A few weeks ago, for a thread on some other message board, I tried to calculate how much paid-for care had cost over the years and this, as well as feeding, clothing, entertaining, etc, needs to be factored into the calculations around whether people feel they can afford to have kids. Bearing in mind that I was paying for childcare between the late 80s and around 2008, I must have spent in excess of £120,000 purely on childcare.
Factor in price increases over the the past 14yrs since I finished paying for this care and I would expect that childcare between birth and approx 12yrs of age is likely to cost somewhere in the region of £90-100k at today's prices.
I really don't know how your average couple, with average jobs and high rent or mortgage payments can actually afford to bring children into the world these days.
This is where my opinions may be seen to be somewhat strict....I think the Chinese have the right idea, 2 children max. I wouldn't impose quite such strict financial tests as they do, although, as many PPs have said, if people are starting from a financial point of being on benefits, they clearly can't afford to support children, but if they have the requisite finances to have kids then at a later point experience a financial setback, that would be different and I'd expect them to be making every effort to improve their situation and not be relying indefinitely on state financial assistance, unless they are physically incapable due to ill health.

The limit in China is now 3 children since 2021, after the country saw a steep decline in birth rates.

antelopevalley · 15/08/2022 01:59

Yes get rid of all those elderly and disabled people by killing them.

EmeraldShamrock1 · 15/08/2022 01:22

yes - euthanasia would solve many problems… (and would help slash care costs and reduce NHS spend).
I don’t intend to go into care until I'm completely incapacitated and hopefully the option of euthanasia is available before then.

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 14/08/2022 23:54

Watchthesunrise · 06/08/2022 14:58

The population crisis can be solved with more realistic expectations about end of life.

We don't have to persevere in keeping old, sick, tired, mentally absent people alive who would rather die peacefully if given a chance.

yes - euthanasia would solve many problems… (and would help slash care costs and reduce NHS spend)

AlliWantIsARoomSomewheeeere · 09/08/2022 15:48

Cant stand the comment!
a) peoples circumstances change all the time (illness/death/redundancy
b) cost of living goes up and up
c) seperations happen
d) MONEY DOESN'T MAKE YOU A GOOD PARENT! I know plenty of great parents who have battled to make ends meet at times.
e) it usually comes up stuck up tories! (sorrynotsorry!)

And probably a bunch more i will think of later!

WanderingFruitWonderer · 09/08/2022 14:29

sst1234 · 08/08/2022 11:10

This kind of regurgitated rhetoric helps no one.

Let’s look at some statistics. And take US for example since their agriculture is tech led. Agricultural yields in the US increased threefold between 1948 and 2017. Yes that’s right 3X. Through tech.

We are being misled to believe that the only way to conserve more is to to consume less. You don’t go running off to hills to live in caves. You use tech.

Drones and vertical farms are just two good examples.

It doesn’t take away from the argument about having kids you can afford. But the informed climate hysteria has to stop.

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Sadly, it's not hysteria. The last IPCC report made it clear that we have very little time left to reverse climate disaster. If the planet heats up to predicted levels in the next few years, arable crops will start to fail, and we could see global food shortages. This isn't uninformed hysteria. It's documented scientific fact. It helps noone to pretend it's not real.
The good news is that we do still have time, if we take fairly drastic action collectively soon. We all need to be on board, but many people don't understand. So, I absolutely stand by my assertion that it's the main reason to think very carefully before bringing more babies into the world.
I don't blame anyone though, as it's hard to get our heads round...

Dibbydoos · 08/08/2022 19:55

There are insufficient babies being born to support future pensioners let alone anything else. I kniw what you're saying OP. Everyone has to contribute to raising children through taxes - we should get them back many times over as long as the children are brought up with self respect and go to work. I worry we have a growing number of intergenerational unemployed kids though.....

Cornettoninja · 08/08/2022 18:02

The judges are naive overestimating how much power we have to bring in enough/more money

and that’s the crux of it. For a lot of people, they could work full time twice over and still not earn enough - certainly with the current cost of living rises.

Really, in an economy with more vacancies than economically active people wages should be rising. That’s capitalism’s good old supply/demand and why people like Corbyn originally supported Brexit until he and his party couldn’t ignore the deluded jesters proposing it.

xJoyfulCalmWisdomx · 08/08/2022 17:45

Not everybody is judging thankfully 🍷
I know that people on here made me feel a bit shit when my dc were tiny and I was a single parent. I'm working now. Id earn more if I were paid more!! The judges are naive overestimating how much power we have to bring in enough/more money

TeddyisMydog · 08/08/2022 16:38

Well I had 4 children while relying on universal credit (I was in and out of work due to poor mental health and my last baby was conceived on contraception while I was working)
But having stared down the barrel of 'making do' I'm determined not to let my children down any further.
I'm working 2 jobs, my partner does part time hours around me. Sure we probably will never have enough wages not to need UC but we are trying our best

So no not everyone who has 4 children is jobless, lazy and contributes nothing to society 🤨

EilonwyWithRedGoldHair · 08/08/2022 12:52

Don’t pretend you are doing others people a favour by having children. No one is “making a sacrifice” to have kids for the hood of society, they are not having kids for selfless reasons.

It's not stupid. Individually we have children because we want them, but our birth rate is below replacement level so as a society we need children. Both things can be true, and if only the very wealthy had children, society would collapse - I assume the vast majority of people would agree this would be a bad thing.

(I would agree reducing birth rates and therefore the human population is a good thing in many ways, given our insatiable use of the Earths resources, however a catastrophic drop brings its own massive problems, so a slower decline would be better. And reduced consumption alongside it, though I fear as far as climate change goes it's either already too late or about to be very soon with no sign we're actually going to do enough.)

Grapewrath · 08/08/2022 12:17

I had my first dd young and accidentally. I definitely didn’t have the means to support her and had a period on benefits and in a homeless place for parents.
Anywsy she’s 19 now and I was back in full time work by the time she was 5. She was all the motivation I needed to sort my life out. In mumsnet I ‘relied on the state’ at some points but I’ve raised an amazing daughter who attends university full time and also works almost full time.
I don’t regret any of it and im glad I didn’t wait until I was in the best financial position as I would have been in my 40s ( I still wouldn’t be financially ready now by MN standards)

sst1234 · 08/08/2022 11:10

WanderingFruitWonderer · 08/08/2022 02:40

I think some people still haven't grasped how incredibly serious the climate crisis is. We're potentially facing catastrophic food shortages in a few years. Unless drastic action is taken soon, society as we know it will collapse. To me, this is the real issue in terms of reproduction these days. Financial affordability is secondary. Money and the economy are really just artificial constructs. But ecological disaster is real. I really do feel so sorry for babies being born into the world today 😔

This kind of regurgitated rhetoric helps no one.

Let’s look at some statistics. And take US for example since their agriculture is tech led. Agricultural yields in the US increased threefold between 1948 and 2017. Yes that’s right 3X. Through tech.

We are being misled to believe that the only way to conserve more is to to consume less. You don’t go running off to hills to live in caves. You use tech.

Drones and vertical farms are just two good examples.

It doesn’t take away from the argument about having kids you can afford. But the informed climate hysteria has to stop.

rainbowmilk · 08/08/2022 11:01

WanderingFruitWonderer · 08/08/2022 02:40

I think some people still haven't grasped how incredibly serious the climate crisis is. We're potentially facing catastrophic food shortages in a few years. Unless drastic action is taken soon, society as we know it will collapse. To me, this is the real issue in terms of reproduction these days. Financial affordability is secondary. Money and the economy are really just artificial constructs. But ecological disaster is real. I really do feel so sorry for babies being born into the world today 😔

Honestly, the majority of people don’t care as long as they get to have their little family.

Runnerduck34 · 08/08/2022 10:50

It would be very sad if only the well off could have DC. I do think people from all backgrounds should be able to have children. However common sense should say that you shouldn't have too many DC if you are really struggling.

I agree with OP that society benefits from havng a younger population, an aging population can drain resources and basically its the younger generation who fix roofs, carry out hip replacement operations, work in supermarkets etc not to mention pay tax and NI to pay for pensions, NHS, infrastructure etc.
So parents obviously want to DC for personal reasons but having DC does involve sacrifice on their part but wider society, including those who chose not to have children, does benefit from their DC eventually.
Very easy for pp to say when you are young and healthy you will be off to dignitis as soon as you aren't able to fully look after yourself but when you are 70 or 80 you might have a different view, anyway whose going to fly you out there, give you the drink, and dispose of your body?? The younger generation! Society does need children and within reason everyone should be able to have them.

hellhavenofury · 08/08/2022 10:42

There is a big difference between poor but scraping by and not being able to feed and house yourself let alone children. The latter group no should not be having children. For the sake of the child being the number one reason!

SoapboxJudges · 08/08/2022 10:42

IRememberXanadu · 08/08/2022 10:32

People relying on the state to financially support their kids after a change in circumstances that made them require such help, should get no help for any children they after after they end up on state support. You want more kids? Your choice - but don't expect others' tax money to pay for them.

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I think I'll leave this thread now.. While there clearly exists misplaced entitlement among some of the 'have nots', the impact of expectations among the 'haves' is a hell of a lot greater and more damaging.

DaisyWaldron · 08/08/2022 10:40

What do you think should happen to those children? Maybe they should be forcibly removed from their parents and adopted by wealthy people? Left to starve? Put into orphanages where they are trained up and sent out to work as carers and fruit-pickers until they've aid back the cost of their upbringing?

IRememberXanadu · 08/08/2022 10:32

Okbye · 08/08/2022 07:32

It kills me that some people continue to reproduce when they can't afford it/don't have the means of giving them a decent life.

I've worked in social housing since 2007 and the entitlement of some people blows my mind! A woman was shouting at me not so long ago because she's got 6 kids in a 2 bed house (that she's lived in for years) and she was cross that I couldn't just magic a lovely 4 bed house out of my arse. Not being funny love, but why oh why continue to get pregnant when you haven't got any fucking space?!! It baffles me!

People relying on the state to financially support their kids after a change in circumstances that made them require such help, should get no help for any children they after after they end up on state support. You want more kids? Your choice - but don't expect others' tax money to pay for them.

AlaskaThunderfuckHiiiiiiiii · 08/08/2022 09:35

I think robots in peoples homes could be an answer to the community care issue, they could assist with washing, dressing and taking medications, meals etc and then those who are currently home carers could be more like visitors to give company to people who otherwise maybe wouldn’t get any.

Personally for me I’d rather shuffle off before becoming so I’ll as I need to rely on people heavily. Although I do think the last generation of people living to very old age is passing, I doubt I will see 90 etc as our diets are crap, we have more sedentary lives etc

JorisBonson · 08/08/2022 09:26

AddieLoggins2 · 08/08/2022 09:12

Rather than thinking poor people shouldn't have children, I think a rich country shouldn't have poor people.

Rishi? Is that you?

AddieLoggins2 · 08/08/2022 09:12

Rather than thinking poor people shouldn't have children, I think a rich country shouldn't have poor people.