the "don't have kids if u can't afford them" mentality...

And that we have no idea what love is.

I really believe anyone thinking even thinking of bringing a child into the world is coldly considering an act of cruelty.

• Stanley Goodspeed

As someone pointed out, chronic poverty is intergenerational and so most often, poorer adults will have poorer children who themselves will most often become poor adult. Add in the psychological effects and learned behaviour of chronic unemployment (for whatever reason), these children are also more likely to do worse in school and eventually end up unemployed. Saying that everyone is allowed to have as many children as they want regardless of if they can afford to feed, clothe and house them because they will grow up to be successful, tax-paying citizens is ridiculous. Ofc nobody can police other peoples reproductive freedoms, but the less selfish thing is to consider if bringing a child into a life of abject poverty is a good idea. There is a very good non fiction book called Invisible Child by Andrea Elliot which won the Pulitzer this year and it documents the life of a family in Brookyln with 7 children who are in and out of shelters, parents are either separated or back together, intermittently using drugs and unemployed but continue having children. They have a terrible life and the children struggle with school etc because of the uncertainty.

I got a right telling off on FB for saying this. There was a woman on there saying how upsetet she was about being a single mother, having five kids and no spare money to even buy them a lollipop. I said maybe she shouldn't have five kids inthe first place.

People were saying that it's not about money, it's about how much love you give them. I replied that wasn't true, that kids never forget about being the poor one at school and that I only had two because that's all we could afford.

I think the world will be a very different place in 40 years and the needs of the population will be quite different.

japan is already looking at how to manage it s growing elderly population and are working now at making radical changes to elderly care.

www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-ageing-robots-widerimage-idUSKBN1H33AB

Whilst this might seem a bit dystopian now, I do think that it is a possible solution for the future.

For example the opinion that children should continue to be born to care for elderly is naive, and not really going to work

Sorry, but that’s not even close to what the issue is. Societies work because the young replace the elderly - regardless of what they choose to do with their time and money, if that cycle undergoes a sudden correction (sudden equalling a decade or two) then there’s a problem. It’s not about creating a society of robots assigned jobs, it’s about recognising a danger to the fabric of our (current) society because it simply doesn’t work based on what we have.

it’s been known about and discussed for at least the last twenty years.

Yeah, I don't think anyone is advocating having 10 kids living in squalor.

We're talking about preachy types who think only people who can provide their lifestyle are worthy of having children. For example, those who think you have to own your own home before having a child, or a certain salary, certain house size...

How is that measured though ? I’m sure someone somewhere has done the calculations?

Okay - I am trying to follow your logic here.

a family who already have three children, struggling financially, cost of living crisis biting. They shouldn’t consider as part of deciding whether to have a fourth child because in twenty years time that baby might grow up to be a career??

what about the impact an extra mouth to feed has on the three children already in the family?

surely lots of people consider money when deciding whether or not to have a baby? These are grown ups making grown up decisions - why should money not be a factor?

if you decide to have a baby surely you need to know you could feed, clothe and house that baby?

I also work in care, the crisis hasn’t come from people not having enough kids, it’s from the piss poor funding health care gets. No amount of new children being born will change that.

Also, its easy to say everyone’s going to need someone to care for them when they age when it’s your job and what you are seeing everyday but when I look at my life outside of work I too also only know of a handful of elderly people who did.

We have a neighbour who says this. They have more than 6, I won’t put the actual number in case they are on MN. Said that having x amount made them work hard to afford their family. Built their careers after having the DC, so they couldn’t actually afford the size of the family before they had the DC. They are always judging other neighbours who have much smaller families.

I would say that the comment is not aimed at not having children but only having a brood that you can sensibly support on your salary.
Many middle earners might want more kids but make the decision not to because of the cost and the fact that tax credits, child allowance and other government support and grants are not available to them. They're also likely to pay significant tax and mortgages or private rental rates.
Others don't have to contemplate this as the government support is available to them, they are in receipt of tax credits and perhaps have capped rent in social housing.

Parents’ motives to have kids are definitely selfish, @Fluffyboo , but those kids grow up and become useful to the rest of us! My DD, for example, wants to study engineering, That skill will definitely be useful to we oldies!

There will also be a fair percentage that won't be useful. That's why I disagree with the 'we should be grateful to parents, because they make sacrifices to bring up their children' argument - people are people, some end up contributing to society, some end up criminals, others prefer to live in their parents houses in their 30s and spend all day unemployed and smoking weed.

People just don't have kids for the benefit of society, they have them for the benefit of themselves and their family, therefore they need to take responsibility for them and not purposely bring them into overcrowding/poverty

Global population will start to shrink by the end of the century.

There are more than enough resources to feed everyone well.

Fine, only have DC's if you can afford it but only claim a state pension if you have raised at least 2 DC's for 18 years.

There is shit medical and social care now! The world is 8 billion people and expected population in 25 years is nearly 10 billion.

I think it depends on circumstances and people’s attitudes. I’m very sympathetic towards a couple in in their thirties wanting to have a child although money is tight. You can’t wait forever. Most people can make it work if they’re smart about it. I wouldn’t begrudge anyone having a child full stop .
I do think it’s ridiculous when a couple is in their early to mid twenties and despite not having stable jobs or savings decide to have a baby and think a magic money fairy will come along and provide for it. There’s a childish attitude in some of ‘I want a baby and I want it now!’ like it’s a pet, when really they could wait a few more years. Easier to pop out a baby and hope for the best than make an effort to establish a stronger form of income and put some money to one side for a rainy day.
Even better when within the next five years, one baby turns into three children and they don’t have adequate housing, clothing or enough food. I think some parents complete lose sight of what’s ‘good enough’ when it comes to what their children need. Hence they have more (children) without realising that it means their other children will have less (food, decent clothing, space, activities, toys etc).Their wish to procreate tops everything and it’s just plain selfish and shameful.

You’re right, they shouldn’t be moaning that the council won’t give them a bigger house.

They should be moaning that successive governments have facilitated an economy that moves the ability to be self sustaining further and further out of reach.

shelter is now an investment not a basic need.

If only the wealthy had DC who'd stack the supermarket shelves, clean the offices, look after the elderly and disabled?
WC are an important part of society, the cogs that help push the machines.

The propaganda runs deep, we’ve had over twenty years of media explicitly telling us that all our problems are caused by feckless breeders who don’t want to work.

Its a shame, it doesn’t really take that much energy to look at the actual figures and see that is not where the problems in society lie.