Debating between these two countries. Which is better to bring children up in?

@mathanxiety It’s a choice between 2 countries- one which has hundreds of mass shootings per year, including primary school shootings and one that doesn’t.
I am including all the gun issues you have. So mentioning that a girl was shot at a petrol station near you isn’t really selling the US to me. Or that you have gang warfare on your doorstep. Or that there was a shooting in an office near you. I thought the gun culture didn’t affect you?

I would choose the one that doesn’t have these issues. Yes the U.K. has many other issues but I don’t worry about my kids getting shot. That’s the bottom line for me.

I don’t like the gun culture in the US (amongst many other things mentioned).

Plane crashes are not unique to the U.K.
Natural disasters - we have no control over.
Road traffic accidents happen everywhere (and are worse in the US).

In short, it's possible to be aware of certain dangers but not to let yourself be paralysed by fear, and this is how it is in the US.

Right, but the debate (whole point of the thread, in fact) is whether to move to the US, which has these issues - or another country, which doesn’t.

@BlackandBlueBird, I guarantee that your nearest Jewish school and synagogue have comprehensive security measures in place.

I don't know of any Jewish community anywhere that is not concerned about being targeted, and not prepared for that eventuality.

@Delatron

Focusing on random shootings as a major problem in American life is quite a privileged take on things. The annual toll of gun related violence in the city next door to me is clearly not reported by the BBC even though it has a far greater impact than random shootings on daily life in the communities worst affected. Sometimes the gang warfare and criminality spills over into my municipality - a girl was shot in a carjacking at a petrol station two weeks ago. Police have no leads to go on. A man wielding a machete has recently been robbing pedestrians late at night in a certain city neighbourhood.

Stats tell us the likelihood of being involved in a traffic accident are high but I drive to work and to the supermarket and take the odd trip on the motorway. Obviously I wear a seat belt and make sure my passengers are buckled up too, and I obey the rules of the road. The unlikely event of a bus careening out of control or a drunk driver hitting me are somewhere at the back of my mind, but I and millions of others take our lives into our own hands every day. If you're a driver, do you let thoughts of being involved in a fatal pile up keep you from driving?

If you occasionally go on a foreign holiday, do you let fear of a plane crash stop you?

There are people living in areas that are frequently affected by floods, hurricanes and tornados too. They don't spend all their time fretting.

People lived normal lives in Northern Ireland during all the bombings and terror of the Troubles. Children went to school and to university, people took holidays, hiked in the mountains, planned weddings, had babies, mowed their lawns and washed their cars on the weekend, drank tea, made cakes...

In short, it's possible to be aware of certain dangers but not to let yourself be paralysed by fear, and this is how it is in the US.

27 school shootings already this year.

In 2021 there were 693 mass shootings. 2020 there were 611 and 2019 413.

2021 there were 31 school shootings - the highest ever recorded.

Things are getting worse, not better.

I don’t really buy in to the argument that ‘my state has no shootings therefore I never think about it’.

The recent shooting in Chicago (blue, some gun controls?) shows that.

We all have a choice where to live and I would choose not to live where these kind of shootings happen every month. And will continue to happen with increasing frequency.

Does life go on? Yes.

Not for the victims of Sandy Hook and other school shootings, it doesn't.

England better. Much less likely to get shot at school!

Does life go on? Yes.

Life goes on everywhere. Also in slums of Brazil, townships of South Africa, in oppressive Arab states. I'm not comparing US to these but it can't be denied tgat US has its own unique but very serious problems like these countries, more so compared to UK, and the question is about whether you'd actively choose to go live there.

Does life go on? Yes.

Well, of course it does. But some (a lot) of us don’t want a life in which preschools require security patrols, students at our kids’ high schools bring in guns, acquaintances are murdered in broad daylight, we fall asleep at night listening to gunfire, our kids do shooter drills at school.

You have a wonderful life in the States, I get it. I had a wonderful life in the States too. But you can have a wonderful life somewhere and also realise how completely messed up aspects of it are.

The problem here is that a crazy with the gun can (and does) turn up anywhere. A relative of mine lost some friends at work a few years ago when a gunman turned up at their office. Has that happened recently in your town? There was a shooting at our local mall a couple of weeks ago, where shoppers were forced to flee as bullets were flying. Does that happen where you live? My son has to do active shooter drills at school. How many times does your kid have to do drills like this? Kids turn up at school with guns in their backpacks to show their friends. You can sometimes hear gunshots at night. And I live in a very nice area.

Unless you've lived here, you really can't say that someone's imagination needs to be "reined in", or that people shouldn't be scared. This is a country with approximately 400 million guns. Just think about that statistic for a moment.

As a matter of fact, I do live here.

I live in a very nice area that is probably an hour and a half south of Highland Park, less depending on traffic. There are large gay and black and Jewish populations in my suburb, which is proud of its contribution to racial justice in this country. Its voting record is the bluest of blue. It opened a symbolic registry for gay couples to register domestic partnerships years before the Supreme Court legalised gay marriage. It's in many ways a plum target for right wing extremist violence. The local synagogues and their preschools are well equipped with cameras and security patrols.

Any random disaffected young white man aged 18-24 could carry a gun to a civic event - there are lots of them, from family movie nights in the local parks, open air theatrical productions, live music events, street festivals, and Memorial Day and 4th of July parades - to the packed public swimming pools, to a high school football game on a Friday night, to the many restaurants with outdoor seating, packed with diners on a lovely summer night, to the congregations attending synagogues and churches on weekends, to the lines of people at the ice cream place, and to any school at recess. A student was removed from the high school in the past semeter when it was discovered that he had a gun, not the first and probably not the last.

I have worked in a few different skyscrapers in the city next door, and I know dozens of people who still do. This despite 9/11 and despite the murder in broad daylight of the husband of a women from my church community many years ago by a former employee.

I live about fifteen minutes on foot from an area of that city which is plagued by incessant gang violence. I used to live two blocks from this area and on warm summer nights I could hear the pop of gunfire and the sirens of police cars and ambulances.

My children have always done tornado and fire drills, and added shooter drills when the oldest was about 12.

Are we barricaded inside our home? No.
Do we often leave the back door unlocked at night? Yes.

Does life go on? Yes.

My US friends and colleagues have added public parades to the places to now be afraid of going to - along with schools, cinemas and churches…

I have friends in the US - different states - and none of them has a list of places to be afraid of going to. Not only that, they never mention shootings at all. The US is so vast that unless it happens nearby I imagine it is much like seeing something happening in another country.

Plus our fab (but in its knees NHS). I couldn't be somewhere, where someone being sick /dying means you have to sell your house to fund. even with insurance

Couldn't cope with the decision on Roe vs Wade.

The racism.

I live in the US with a young teen but have spent most of my life in England. I was driving home from the shops the other day and there were families walking to a 4th July parade in our small town. For a fleeting moment I thought that it might be nice to go to a parade, but part of me is scared that something awful might happen.

The problem here is that a crazy with the gun can (and does) turn up anywhere. A relative of mine lost some friends at work a few years ago when a gunman turned up at their office. Has that happened recently in your town? There was a shooting at our local mall a couple of weeks ago, where shoppers were forced to flee as bullets were flying. Does that happen where you live? My son has to do active shooter drills at school. How many times does your kid have to do drills like this? Kids turn up at school with guns in their backpacks to show their friends. You can sometimes hear gunshots at night. And I live in a very nice area.

Unless you've lived here, you really can't say that someone's imagination needs to be "reined in", or that people shouldn't be scared. This is a country with approximately 400 million guns. Just think about that statistic for a moment.

Maybe it depends where you live?

Though avoiding demonstrations is probably a very good idea regardless. That's still not the same thing as hiding in your house out of fear of a random shooting.

Not so. We very deliberately avoid public gatherings for this reason. The recent holiday events were full of extreme right wingers and their propaganda. It was very intimidating and we’re both white.

Americans are not so afraid that they have shut themselves into their homes in fear.

Our local fireworks were canceled yesterday because the gunman was still at large, in the same metropolitan area where the shooting took place, when the decision had to be made, but nearby suburbs went ahead with their displays, and the local public pools were heaving today - a heat index of 105-109F meant lots of happy kids splashing around. There were long lines at the cinema because it's a nice, chilly place to go in the heat of summer, and the local rink had a full to capacity open skate session.

The Supreme Court was never designed to take the place of the legislative or executive branch of government. It is now up to interested lobbies to mobilise voters in individual states to express their choices in a democratic process. The next few elections - for every Senate seat and every House district, and for every state office - will be hard fought. That is how democracy works - it's not going to result in instant gratification, and the pendulum demonstrably swings both ways in the Supreme Court. I'm not a wild eyed optimist. I just appreciate that this is a long game.

England. No question!

Well to be quite honest, mathanxiety, I don't think their imagination needs to be reined in. That is the reality of living in america today. It did feel ok living in states with strong gun control laws (like my state) but the supreme court has put paid to that.

I've lived in the US for nearly 30 years and went to a show in Boston recently. For the first time ever I thought that anyone could have brought a gun in there (not an assault weapon because those are too big to disguise). I thought about it and I was right to think about it.

And I don't think people who think nothing can be done about gun control are that unusual a cohort. I think that tbh. I've been here for 28 years and I've seen gun control regulation get worse not better despite school shootings etc getting worse too. Can you really have hope after the latest supreme court decision? you are fairly irrationally optimistic if you do. I know that most americans support gun control laws. Like I know most americans support abortion rights. But that is not what we are getting or are likely to get. I don't need my imagination reined in. I need the supreme court to be reined in.

My US friends and colleagues have added public parades to the places to now be afraid of going to - along with schools, cinemas and churches…

Your imagination needs to be reined in.

There are already amnesties for guns in many cities, or gun buybacks. This is because many cities both large and small, with the support of their citizens, do feel that something can be done about guns.

The most depressing thing for me is how my US friends and colleagues GENUINELY think nothing can be done about mass shootings and that this just the way the US is now.

Your friends and colleagues are an unusual cohort then.
Most Americans support stricter rules around guns. Since SCOTUS seems to be prepared to dig in on guns and several other causes dear to conservatives, the galvanising of voters on this issue will be interesting to watch.
news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

Point them to this site and tell them they can join millions of their fellow citizens in putting their money where their mouth is:
www.greenmatters.com/p/gun-control-organizations

Advise them to vote for gun control candidates for House, Senate, state offices, mayors, and governors in the upcoming midterms.

It’s the ‘ oh it can never be done, genii is out of the bottle attitude’ from some and from others ‘we need guns now to protect ourselves from all the people with guns…’

amnesty. Give people money for their guns, destroy them, take away military grade weapons, have proper checks for those who have a genuine reason for holding a non automatic firearm - hunters, farmers etc.

I know right?

I live in Ireland and have lived in both England & America. I would definitely choose England to raise my kids if it had to be one of the two

The most depressing thing for me is how my US friends and colleagues GENUINELY think nothing can be done about mass shootings and that this just the way the US is now. TAKE. THE. GUNS. AWAY.

Yet another mass shooting yesterday. My US friends and colleagues have added public parades to the places to now be afraid of going to - along with schools, cinemas and churches…
oh, and my new. ( temporary thank goodness) US boss expressed surprise that I’m not taking my laptop with me on my week long holiday to check emails while I’m away. He thought that ‘on the account of all the PTO you guys get’ I would deffo have been working ‘some’.
sorry mate, but I will be taking every one of my 30 days annual leave off, along with public holidays, and if you want to boast about how you just can’t seem to use up the 15 days a year you get that’s your look out…