Debating between these two countries. Which is better to bring children up in?

I saw a post on Reddit following the last primary school shooting.

In America, you can buy a school backpack that has an armour plate. To protect children.

Fuck that, I couldn't imagine living in a country with a very real possibility that I could deliver my child to school happy and healthy and collect them in a body bag. No. No. No.

I don't like to justify the US health system at all, but it should be pointed out that typically insurance does pay for the ambulance and some municipalities don't charge at all (mine does not).

That's good to hear @knitnerd90. As I quite horrified at the cost, especially as I've heard similar from other American friends. I know they all have insurance as thankfully it's fully covered other things when needed, though sadly not all. My friend is a huge guy, so is my DH, friends wife is my size, I can't imagine the stress of dealing with someone that much bigger than you when they are mid heart episode & could collapse any minute 🥴

FWIW, DH and myself (both American) left the States over a decade ago and chose to raise our family here in the UK. He could earn so much more money in the US doing his job, but the work-life balance is what sold us here. And I could not imagine raising my children in an environment where active shooter drills are the norm at schools. No way. Nope.

No, I wouldn’t move to FL or TX either.
I used to know Maryland well, my uncle’s good friend had a boat on the Potomac that we used to holiday on. I wish I could remember the marina where he moored it, it was beautiful.
I find when I talk to Brits who don’t actually know the US they tend to think of it as the kind of town you see in teen films - American Pie et al - wide streets and wraparound porches.

They almost never think of the kind of place I used to live (blue state, but a mostly red area) - a lot of poverty, amazing sense of community, terrible health issues because of obesity and prescription drugs, incredibly kind people, guns everywhere.

There's a dozen reasons I would never move to either of those states, and guns don't even crack the top three. I live in Maryland outside of DC and quite probably my area is not really what Brits think about when they think "America".

School shootings make the headlines, but what is far more dangerous for most children are poorly stored guns in the home, or community violence.

Yes - and this could be an issue for the OP given the move would be to FL. I’ve got a good friend who relocated from NY to TX and she loved sharing stories of Texan play dates - a crucial question to be asked before sending your kid off to a new house was how the guns were stored 😀

I don't like to justify the US health system at all, but it should be pointed out that typically insurance does pay for the ambulance and some municipalities don't charge at all (mine does not).

There are things that I have found are genuinely better here. Aside from a few big cities, there aren't competitive school admissions. You are assigned to a school and you go there. (Less fun for buying in the right catchment, but it's all very straightforward.) SEN services are generally better and there are stronger legal guarantees. If a school doesn't have the right service it's on them and the school district to assign you to another school (no effort on your part), and they can't exclude children or say things like "he can't cope". I have had much better luck with children's mental health than my friends/family in the UK. I was mixed about primary school (SEN was brilliant, English/literacy approach less so) but at secondary level my kids have had a really excellent experience, and they don't have to make pressured decisions at 16 about A-Levels.

That doesn't make the US a better country, but there's often an attitude in these threads of "everything in the US is shit" and it's not true. The one-sidedness does rather remind me of right wing Americans who think everything in "Europe" (which they treat as a single place) must be terrible because it is a socialist hellhole.

UK every time

Putting aside gun laws, racism, misogyny. A good friend in America had a heart episode recently. They have insurance, but it doesn't fully cover everything it seems, he said this was normal.

His wife had to drive him to the hospital whilst they both thought he was having a heart attack. Hospital thought so too on arrival. Turned out they made the call not to call paramedics as it would have cost them £6,000 for an ambulance. Thankfully he was okay & no heart damage, but a muscle spasm in his heart.

UK wins hands down

I hate guns, but it is worth pointing out the epidemiology of gun violence. It is not at all spread equally. Depending on your demographics, your likelihood of being personally affected can be very different. I live 45 minutes from one of the most dangerous cities in the country, but my suburb is an entirely different story. It is well worth checking the CDC statistics sometime. School shootings make the headlines, but what is far more dangerous for most children are poorly stored guns in the home, or community violence.

And I would have to disagree- that if guns are the LEADING cause of death for American children that ‘The vast majority of Americans live lives unaffected by guns’.

Rubbish. You are denying and minimising the massive gun issues over there.

Oh another MN USA bashing thread! We moved from the UK to the USA. I'll say that as a Jewish person I do feel safer in the USA, mainly--and I have a choice of more than 2 cities to live in (with a decent sized community that is). It is a bit of a shitshow here at the moment, but some of the criticisms really are wrong. American food prices feel expensive to Brits because 1) you are thinking in pounds and the pound has been in the toilet for years and 2) you are comparing American prices to British salaries. If you were making American salaries, unless you were on a very low wage, you wouldn't see prices that way, and you'd also know how to shop.

Also, while private universities are heinously expensive, the average state university is comparable to or cheaper than the UK (for residents) since the fees went up over £9K. Most Americans are not going to Harvard, and if you actually get into the Ivy League, they offer lots of financial aid so you only pay the sticker price if you're wealthy.

@mathanxiety

I’m not suggesting anything. It’s great that despite people getting shot near you on a regular basis that guns don’t affect you.

That you can park the statistic that guns are the leading cause of deaths for kids in the U.S

I personally couldn’t and I wouldn’t want to live over there because of that.

It’s a valid opinion.

Well, because there’s no such thing as an English passport 😉

But most Americans - the vast majority - live lives unaffected by guns.

You are suggesting that Americans live in fear of guns and if they don't there
is something wrong with them. A part of the UK was patrolled by soldiers, and British special services colluded with sectarian militias to commit crimes for decades, and official reports whitewashed the killing of civilians for far too long, of but hiss boo at the US, because guns. Spare me.

You don't understand the US or how Americans live, but you clearly think you have some sort of inside track, because guns.
..........
...to claim I know nothing about the country I live in is bizarre.
My post was a tongue in cheek parody of your posts directed at me.

I’ve said over and over again that the U.K. is not perfect. Especially at the moment. So to claim I know nothing about the country I live in is bizarre. I’ve said Brexit was a disaster. Johnson is/was a disaster.

But. We. Don’t. Have. Guns

I live in a very lovely town in the UK. There are no ASBOs or piss/vomit.
@Delatron

Now it's my turn to insist that you know nothing of your own country, and seem not to care that it's going down the toilet. I can argue with you that you are wrong about your experience of leaving your door unlocked.

You are even thinking about kids toys being stolen? Poor you.
I never had to. That's kinda my point....

Also people in MAGA hats, etc.
Last time I checked, the Tories had a large majority. Clearly Boris Johnson once had a major appeal for a lot of voters.

Food is also hellishly expensive, eating out is actually cheaper than the supermarket! I literally couldn’t get my head around how families can survive paying those kinds of prices.

That will be the UK in two years, at most. In fact there are many families having trouble making ends meet in today's UK; hence the rise of food banks. Food price inflation is set to hit 20% in the first quarter of next year.

Mass shooting events at schools are not a regular part of any other country than the USA. So there's that...

Also people in MAGA hats, etc.

Leaving the UK v US nonsense behind, why on earth wouldn't you lock the door?

It takes a second to lock it. Literally, that's all it takes. Compare that to the hassle of sorting out the aftermath of a burglary.

No matter how nice, safe and crime-free a place, I can't imagine ever deliberately leaving the door unlocked when I go out. Forgetting is one thing, but I can't understand people who don't bother.

This thread has descended into complete nonsense...

OP, if you're still here, join a Brits in Florida Facebook group and ask them their thoughts. I'm certain it'll clear up a few misconceptions

You are so far removed from what is the reality in the U.K @mathanxiety yes my back door is never locked. Sometimes I even forget to lock it overnight! You are even thinking about kids toys being stolen? Poor you.

Just to be clear: I go out and never lock my door.

My garage full of bikes, paddle boards is never locked. You don’t have a clue.

@mathanxiety I live in a very lovely town in the UK. There are no ASBOs or piss/vomit.

I’d take a bit of piss/vomit/drunken kids over CHILDREN being shot at school!

You’re horrified that teenagers get drunk over here are you? We’re all horrified that you think it’s acceptable that children are killed by guns every day.

Your country is a joke and an embarrassment.
Good luck.

My friend who lives in LA has to step over drunk/homeless people o her way to school.

You are a lone voice defending the shit show that is the US…

I’ve spent a lot of time in Florida (parents owned a house there from when I was 10-23, although we lived in U.K.). When you watch the local news it’s literally full of shootings and murders, not in a oh this is news kind of way, more in a traffic information, avoid such and such a road because there’s been a shooting kind of way. I’m sure it’s mostly gangs/DV type stuff that you and your family aren’t likely to get mixed up in, but I sure as hell wouldn’t want my DC growing up thinking that was just normal life.

And of course, there’s the school shootings element, which is a very real risk.

I got to know my next door neighbour quite well over the years we were there, would hang out with him and have a joint. He was a few years older than me, nice guy, but got into doing heavy drugs and next thing…got murdered (I presume he owed someone money).

Yes the weather is better, and there’s lots to do for kids in Florida, but no way would I ever want to raise a family there.

Food is also hellishly expensive, eating out is actually cheaper than the supermarket! I literally couldn’t get my head around how families can survive paying those kinds of prices.

I have never seen anyone passed out drunk in the street as I have seen in the UK
Seriously? I’ve seen people passed out drunk/drugged so many times in the States - just off the top of my head, in SF, Seattle, NYC, Boston…
If you’re just talking about your suburb well, the same could be said of any well to do British suburb.

There are extreme quality of life issues in vast swathes of the UK

…and in the US. At least there aren’t cities here without access to clean drinking water.

Inequality in the education system and lack of opportunity cause disengagement with education as a value.

And you think those aren’t issues in the States too? Inequality in the education system is horrendous (as it is here, I agree).

I don’t think anyone here is saying that the UK is utopia. The opposite, in fact! The UK has a huge number of issues and nobody is denying that. But so do the States. Yet the States also has this glaring, glaring issue of gun control.

And yes, I leave my back door open all the time (actually the kids leave it open, and I don’t generally bother to check before I go out).

So mentioning that a girl was shot at a petrol station near you isn’t really selling the US to me. Or that you have gang warfare on your doorstep. Or that there was a shooting in an office near you. I thought the gun culture didn’t affect you?
@Delatron

It doesn't. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

You live in a country where youths are issued with ASBOs after they've got away with egregious trouble making for a long period, and weekend drinking makes parts of many towns into scenes from Hogarth, with piss and vomit running down the streets. People in the US are astonished that anyone would put up with that, and football hooliganism is notorious - does it affect you?

Did you know that the 'peace walls' which were built separating warring communities in NI still exist? Did you know that this month one community in NI will build humongous bonfires and burn effigies of political and religious leaders of the other side? How does that affect your view of the UK as a peaceful place to live? Does any of that affect you?

I live in a suburb where graffiti is cleaned off buildings promptly if it ever appears. I have never seen anyone passed out drunk in the street as I have seen in the UK. My DCs could leave their toys and bikes out in the open plan front yard overnight, and none of it would be touched. Dcat was lying in the back doorway when DD3 and I needed to run an errand today, and she's a feisty little beast when she's moved from her sleeping spots, so we just left the door open and went out. Do you do that much?

Yes, the debate is whether to move to one country with a specific set of issues or another country with several really big issues of its own. I think it's a hard decision to make, and my lived experience of life in the US is not dominated by the sort of issues that make headlines around the world. There are extreme quality of life issues in vast swathes of the UK, petty crime is a real problem, responsiveness of police is not great, there is a level of regular, routine and accepted public disorder, and a drinking culture that is out of control. Inequality in the education system and lack of opportunity cause disengagement with education as a value.