Nhs students and lack of consent.

Six different appointments….that’s a lot of times in two years!

@shouldistop I am disabled and don’t have a lot of energy, in 2020 I was busy working night shifts in a care home, my
Mother was dying from cancer, and I was living in uninhabitable housing. I didn’t have time to read the news everyday in case the NHS decided they’re entitled to my organs. The NHS have been exposed for organ theft already, so I guess they wanted to legalise it.

Interested how you expect students to learn, OP.

Would you prefer the newly qualified person doing your smear test had never even observed the procedure?

In our trust we always ask and always accept when someone says no to students. They don’t need a reason to refuse.

I’m sorry you have had these experiences.

@MarbleQueen Medical gaslighting and coercion is real. The nurse was trying to coerce you, how incredibly unethical. I have to wonder about why people feel like ‘my body, my choice’ is unreasonable? Consent is still necessary even in medical situations, or is informed consent being sought a thing of the past? Like the Hippocratic oaths?

If there has ever been a student in the room when I have entered which happened a lot during maternity related appointments, the healthcare professional has always introduced them and why they are there, asked if I was OK with them being there and also where appropriate asked if they could observe or participate in doing checks, procedures. I felt comfortable that I could have declined and reassured that it was OK to do so as they addressed this upon me entering the room. As it happens I'm fine with students being involved as long as the experienced person is watching their progress as everyone has to learn somewhere but I know many people who would be upset by this which is why I think my trust are clearly and sensitively addressing this at the point you go in.

Just say no

In my hospital, there are signs up saying that it is a teaching hospital and if you would rather not have a student present during your care, please let staff know. So it is a sort of opt out option.

Personally I make all medical or nursing students introduce themselves to a patient and ask their permission to observe or carry out any care. As in "Hi, my name is Adam, I'm a final year medical student, I'm here to observe for the day, is that okay?". I've noticed that the majority of the medical students are very uncomfortable introducing themselves to patients, which is a bit worrying.

Saying that, we've all got to learn somewhere. When I was a nursing student, no patient was happy for me to catheterise them under full supervision from someone, so it meant that I qualified without having done it on a real person. Luckily it turned out I was quite good at it!

[quote AutomaticMoon]@shouldistop To opt out of something you first have to be aware that it’s happening. How can people opt out when the NHS did this without telling people in the first place.[/quote]
It was widely publicised. How did you know about it?

There were times during the course of some gruelling treatment I could not deal with being touched, or needed the reassurance that the person performing care on me was experienced. I was ok for students to watch still.

The poster who likened refusal to consent to refusal to get a vaccination needs a crash course in consent.

Consent is obviously very important here. I’ve always been asked about whether I kind a student being present. If not you have every right to complain and it sends a dreadful message to students about how to treat patients.

Was the midwife a student or newly qualified and doing her first delivery. I think the consent might be slightly different but maybe midwives here comment. Either way you should have been informed and emphasis on your needs and reassurance.

@shouldistop To opt out of something you first have to be aware that it’s happening. How can people opt out when the NHS did this without telling people in the first place.

I had a student at our surgery they were encouraged with my consent to ask a couple of questions. It wasn't intimate. I hope they learnt something

And it has come to my attention that women under anaesthesia are having pelvic examinations without being asked for consent or even informed of it. But this has been going on forever, I think, not a recent thing. I’ve seen on a medical forum, how entitled the surgeons and doctors feel to do whatever they want.

You've just reminded me OP that during the 3rd and 4th (failed) attempts to induce labour, the consultant brought 2 or 3 student/junior doctors in to stand and watch me getting the pessary put into my extremely swollen, and agonisingly sore at this point, vagina.

I did not appreciate it, I did not want them there, and I was not asked.

Gosh you’ve been terribly unlucky. I’ve never experienced this, in fact only yesterday I had an appointment with our GP for my baby son and he advised that he had a student doctor with him for the day, and asked if it was okay if she sat in and further asked whether it was okay if he involved her in the consultation. I can’t see any reason at all for you having not been asked consent at any one of your appointments.

Well something must’ve changed because in 2020 the NHS felt entitled to enrol all citizens on the organ donor list, without asking or anything.

I've had two very positive experiences of students. One was my 12 week scan where the baby was in the perfect position, the professor (who was doing the scan!) Asked if we minded some stuff being explained to the students about early sex indicators... it was fascinating. He did it all in the local language and English for our benefit and we got to see baby in 4D.

Second was DD2, home birth and I was asked prior to labour if I'd be OK with a student attending and again when I was in labour to see if it was still OK.

Both times I felt completely respected. The students need to learn.

Personally I've found students to be far more considerate and conscientious than the qualified professional they are learning from, however it should absolutely be your choice, especially if they will be performing any procedures. I dont think it's helpful for people to say what they would or wouldn't have a problem with because we are all different and your feelings are valid so if you are uncomfortable then of course you are not being 'silly' to speak up and say so.