Nhs students and lack of consent.

So only people with the involve to afford private get right to informed consent? Those who can't pay for the privilege of private healthcare and who have very very good reasons for being unable to have extra people in the room during some appointments either be coerced or can go fuck off and suffer, deteriorate or die?

Are they selfish too?

Honestly some people just want a stick to beat people with. Its ok to say no. It won't bother everyone but for others it will be traumatic. Why should those who will find it traumatic shoulder the responsibility for those who it doesn't bother?

I had a young student doctor conduct my breast scan this week, then the consultant came and done the same thing and confirmed the students findings. The student Dr thanked me for consenting to him performing the scan, but no one actually asked me. 🤣 It honestly didn't bother me in the slightest though. I'm pleased I can help with their learning.

I've had men previously take advantage of me and have the same hang ups as a lot of women. It's a health care professional though.

I would be very surprised if that poster ever trains anyone in anything other than how to ride roughshod over a person’s genuinely held feelings about wanting consent before having observers present in their medical appointments.

We’ve had a lot of appointments where the students are already sat in the room and we’re either just told they’re there or told with “ if you don’t mind”. My daughter has autism and the fewer in the room the better but when they’re already settled it makes it really difficult to ask them to leave.

I agree with this. Unless they’re happy to have partially trained clinicians treat them (which is what many appear to be objecting to), they’re effectively saying that other patients should shoulder that burden. Seems pretty selfish.

It's not a burden for everyone though. I can't care less if students are present but I totally respect other people may feel differently.

It's really shocking that you haven't been asked for consent. I have many hospital appointments and students are quite often present but I can't think of any occasion when I haven't been asked if it was ok. I think for gynaecological appointments people should be asked before they enter the room.

Our GP practise has instigated an “opt out” type thing it seems. There are notices up telling you there are students and to tell the receptionist if you don’t want them present.

I really don’t agree with that way of doing it. Consent should be actively sought, not assumed.

I made a complaint about a local hospital just before covid for this. I was asked for consent for one student to observe a procedure. Midway through three other students came in and the doctor asked the first student if he’d like to complete the process.
It’s something I’ve had done several times, and have allowed students to do, but it was out of order to do that. My Dr was mortified and apologised. He had assumed because I’d been comfortable before that I’d be ok, but said himself that he shouldn’t have assumed.

It happens all the time and it’s not acceptable.

At the birth is really shocking.

I would not be happy nor accepting of this.

As a doctor I always ask my patients whether it's ok.
I do have it on my letters that a trainee may be present and to let us know if they don't want this but I ask on arrival too!

I've had some crappy experiences with med students or early career (exclusively doctors). Often young and blinded by their privilege.

One example: Chatting and flirting when taking history of my child after an op. Really inappropriate. I told them off and said that if any of my (blue chip) company's graduates behaved like that to me as a professional I'd have them disciplined. (Although I appreciate I do have a level of status with our grads)

They saw me as a "mum", a non-medical muggle and low status- and looked shocked once I pointed it out . But I had the social capital to do that. They would not have behaved like that in front of a consultant /professor so why treat me differently?

I hope I contributed to their education. I wasn't a "Karen", I was respectful and gave feedback in the context of improvement. I have been very surprised how "sheltered" a lot of my grads (much more privileged background than me) have been and I'm sensitive to that.

I’m defending being a grown up and not freeloading. If that’s abuse to you, take a long hard look in the mirror.

Just to use my experience, is it OK that nine students were looking into my vagina as an internal examination was about to be performed without my consent? Or should I not care because I wasn't cognisant enough to say yes or no?

I personally can't actually remember the whole thing, I wasn't under any sedation, but had had a lot of pain killers and had been awake for 36 hours, my eyes were rolling in the back of my skull. It was my husband who was appalled at how I was being treated and who asked them to leave.

It is an abuse of power to use someone's body who cannot consent. Absence of protest does not mean consent. Nothing to do with being an adult.

Are you a student?

Uhm, no. Are you a clown?

I am however someone who was trained properly, who has trained many others and understands the importance of people being skilled adequately in order to go on to perform independently at the required standard. I also believe in informed consent but the reality is if you don’t believe in providing the opportunity for people to be properly trained then you shouldn’t have the expectation that your clinician can perform adequately to the standard required and should be happy with someone who has read a few books, watched a few videos and passed some theoretical exams.

@Janesmom

Are you going to reply to me?
Am I being a childish freelander for being angry at what happened to me?

[quote draramallama]@Janesmom

Why are you defending abuse?[/quote]
I’m defending being a grown up and not freeloading. If that’s abuse to you, take a long hard look in the mirror.

@Janesmom

Why are you defending abuse?

See also ward rounds, where a group of staff stand at the foot of a patient's bed discussing them like they're not there and in full earshot of the rest of the patients.

It will not change until we stop accepting it and stop telling people to be grateful for being dehumanised and violated.

I find it particularly objectionable when individuals attempt to defend abusive practices like this that should have been abandoned decades ago. There is no place for such conduct in a civilised society.

Luckily our legal system prioritises consent even if you think patients should be abused and be grateful for it. Which is a fairly odd position to take for most decent human beings.

Posters advocating for a healthcare system that disregards patient consent are advocating for abuse.

I have to wonder why anybody would argue such an abhorrent position.