Nhs students and lack of consent.

There's another thread about something slightly different, entitled 'I am not Your Teachable Moment'. I think perhaps it needs to be remembered that when a person seeks medical treatment, first and foremost, and quite rightly so, their priority is getting medically treated, as quickly, as non-traumatically, and as effectively as possible. Not the education of aspiring medical staff. Patients aren't being paid to be guinea pigs. (I say this as the grand-daughter of a woman who was a guinea pig for a really rather famous plastic surgeon during WWII, so I do have some understanding of the hellish - and I mean hellish, sacrifices of those who have sacrificed so much in the past. My Granny was a far better woman than I. As was my Mum.)

But that kind of strength, and generosity should not be assumed of patients, nor taken for granted.

I work in med ed and absolutely the clinical supervisor should be actively seeking consent. It's not enough to have a sign informing you students are present.

They need to learn but sounds like you've had it happen too much. After my first c section I was super vulnerable and in pain and trying to sleep. Suddenly the curtain whipped open to a dozen students and a doctor explaining all my details. They definitely need to ask consent and be more tactful.

As in, I won't be sending students out to introduce themselves and ask patients in the waiting room. I'll introduce them when the patient comes in, as long as they've ticked yes on the questionnaire.

"My name is Adam, is it ok if I observe?" would be so much better than "My name is Adam. I'll be observing. Is that ok?"

I don't actually tell Adam (students) exactly what to say, just to introduce themselves and to ask the patient if it's okay with them if they observe.

We actually give patients a short questionnaire to fill out while they are waiting, so tomorrow I'm going to add on something about being happy for a student to potentially be present during consultation, with a yes or no tick box, and leave it at that.

At my last eye clinic appointment the doctor asked if I was okay with having three other doctors present whilst he examined my eyes. I agreed to this and each doctor had a look at my eyes and were polite and thanked me for allowing them to do that.

Patients should always be treated with respect and consent sought for everything that happens, including permission for students to be present.

You're happy to be a guinea pig without even knowing you're a guinea pig? How many un-introduced strangers are you happy to have there?

I had a student midwife for the birth of my child and to be honest she was the one that was most attentive and caring towards me as it was still new and the reasons for going into a caring profession was still there in them unlike so many that have been in for so long you are just a name and number to get in and out asap.

But I was asked if I was ok with this. I do agree you should be asked but I'm guessing so many people say no they try and get round it by doing things this way. It ok if you are ok standing your grounds when your not comfortable but there are so many that just won't have the confidence yo say anything

Wow that is shocking that they don’t ask you beforehand.
I haven’t experienced this at all and I wouldn’t be comfortable with any of it either. I have had a trainee midwife attend my booking appointment but was asked beforehand if I was ok with her attending. Definitely not on!

Personally I couldn't give a toss about student doctors , they have to learn somehow . I've had student doctor lead the consultation , I've also had them observe .

I have had somebody sitting in at pretty much every GP appointment and hospital appointment for the last few years, but I have been asked each time if it is OK.

30+ years ago I took my DC2 to his 6 week check. Somebody at the clinic asked the doctor if this woman could sit in. Nobody told me who she was, let alone asked me. The doctor did every check twice, ignoring me but explaining to the visitor what he was doing.

Understandably the baby started to get distressed. Doctor got stroppy, said he couldn't complete the checks because the baby needed feeding (he didn't), then sat and asked me loads of questions about contraception and whether he was planned

I was furious and put in an official complaint, which my HV backed me up over.

When I worked in the NHS I didn't love inflicting students on my patients, but I understand they need to observe real consultations-but I was very strict to always talk to the student about their place in proceedings I e to just listen and observe, nothing more - & I always introduced the student to the patient, explained that they were there purely to observe, and I always checked carefully that the patient didn't object - they rarely did in truth but on the odd occasion they did I asked the student to wait outside - so you have been treated by some very unprofessional health staff tbh, in future state your views and if you aren't happy the student(s) should leave - I also think more than one student at a time is not acceptable, I would never have tolerated that

@Shinypog no absolutely but the whole consent thing is down to them using students as a workforce. Get angry about all of it. The students are as uncomfortable as you are. It's all wrong.

Consent or not, student nurses are paying £27k to be used as unpaid labour in hospitals right now. Get angry. At the government that insists it wants to attract more people to the NHS but charges them twice to do it. It's horrific.

Unfortunately given the strain of nurses and doctors during the pandemic has seem training almost fast tracked, No medical professional or health service was prepared for this and its not going to change, the amount of staff lost for testing stations etc.

I owe my life to a student doctor. I had an appointment with my GP because I had blood in my underwear despite having Menopause 10 years previously. The doctor asked if I minded if a student examined me after him. Because he was teaching the student he spent ages going through everything in fine detail. He asked the student what he would do next and the student said send to hospital for tests, very well said the doctor its up to you to arrange it all. It turns out I had very early stage cancer of the uterus. I know some will say I would have gone to hospital anyway but I feel the hour long consultation with the doctor instead of the usual 10 mins made him more thorough. We all have to learn and if we all refuse then how are the future healthcare professionals to be trained.

We have signs in all waiting rooms and changing cubicles in my X-ray dept stating we are a teaching dept.
Every member of staff adheres to the ‘ Hello my name is………’ principle along with saying their role. Student and apprentice radiographers also state their role and gain consent from the patient for them to perform the imaging examination. All students are supervised by qualified staff who will take over the examination if required.
There is no issue if a patient prefers not to be imaged by students, but there is only so much they can learn regarding a ‘hands on’ profession by imaging our life-size mannequin.

Not wanting to derail the thread but one of the grey areas I've experienced has been around consent for medication, especially related to hospital procedures. I have rarely been given proper information about side effects - just asked do you want something for inflammation / whatever ... and sadly I've experienced some bad side effects as a result.

Likewise when a routine scan showed I'd lost my baby at 12 weeks I was told later that afternoon over the phone 'we've booked you in for surgery on Thurs'. No discussion of options or explanation of why this was the best decision for me or opportunity to ask questions. I didn't give informed consent by any means.