I’m so fed up with all this vegan wankery

@GoldenKelpie
The problem is it can't accurately be described as 'personal choice' when an animal is killed due to the choice. It's no longer personal, it involves another life.

If you are killing dogs to eat, people would be up in arms. We are all so socially conditioned, by the massive advertising budgets of the meat and dairy industries who WANT OUR MONEY!!!!

MyGhastIsFlabbered
@JinglingHellsBells being vegan is about doing the best you can, and accepting none of us can be 100% cruelty free. But does knowing you can't be completely cruelty free mean you shouldn't even try? I know because of my de idiom to be vegan less animals have died, that's good enough for me

Yes, but it is only vegans who judge everyone else, isn't it? Every single plate of food, whether it be vegan or omnivore, has caused the death of some sort of sentient beings. However, it is only vegans who accuse non-vegans of causing the death of other creatures, they turn a blind eye to their own role. Seems hypocritical, doesn't it?

The best way you can be 'cruelty free' or 'reduce cruelty' is to encourage restorative, regenerative farming practices, buy locally produced animal proteins and veggies/fruits in season, use cars less, reduce, reuse, repair stuff, limit single-use plastic use.

I am trying to find a job that is local and I can walk to (two years and no success yet!). I am happy to walk for an hour to work and did this for three months last year temporarily. I would love something permanent though, it would mean I would not need my car any more.

I am finding the conversation here about the loss of vegetarian dishes for vegan dishes in restaurants interesting. Never realised. Wetherspoons have just launched a new menu which includes more vegetarian AND vegan choices. They're pretty good like that (also got a new 10oz rump steak dish - I had it last Tuesday ).

wejammin, I guess that at least 98% of UK population eat an omnivore diet, the rest mostly being vegetarian and a tiny amount being vegan. It is normal for humans to eat animal proteins; we have done so for aeons. It enabled us to grow our brains and intelligence. Remarkable achievement, actually.

I appreciate that, as a vegan, you are 'not perfect'. None of us are, we all do our best to eat in a healthy way.

It just seems that the push going on at the moment to force everyone to forego animal proteins is very disturbing. You are right, there isn't room for rational debate and actually, it is a personal choice what someone chooses to eat, what diet they prefer to follow. I have no wish to impose my personal opinions on anyone else's food choices.

The vitriol that follows a vegan who becomes (usually for health reasons) an ex-vegan is both shocking and unique (watch some of the 'ex-vegan youtubes videos ). No other dietary pattern seems to attract extreme reactions when someone stops doing it and switches to something else. Vegans even despise vegetarians for heavens sake!

I mean, I've done loads of different diets over the decades and no-one gives a sh1t or judged me when I stopped/changed.

What is the answer? Mutual respect and acceptance on all sides I guess.

There seem to be an awful lot of meat eaters on this thread who only eat locally sourced grass fed organic meat, dairy and eggs, and only eat British fruit and vegetables, and have never ever ever eaten an avocado or an almond.

It's a real shame that debates like this descend into total straw man arguments.

I'm vegan (there, I announced it). I try to eat British seasonal produce. I grow as much as I can on my allotment (and no, I don't use animal fertilizer), but I fully accept I'm not perfect. I use petrol in my car. I take medicine as required. I sometimes slip up and eat something non-vegan accidentally. I don't beat myself up about it. I'm a human just trying my best to be a good person. I've read a lot and I can't see a well developed argument against veganism. That's my researched opinion.

It just seems impossible to have a calm and rational debate about it without it descending into whataboutery and gross misrepresentation (on both sides)

Honestly where are these places that don't have any cheesy/eggy dishes? I've always seen a range of vegetarian dishes except for exclusively vegan places.

I'm also a long-term vegetarian who is sick and tired of what used to be a lovely range of restaurant/'eating out' veggie meals being reduced to vegan only. Often there's zero protein in these meals--they are just starchy white stuff with (if you are lucky) a few veg. Gone are the nice cheese dishes and meals with cream, butter, eggs, etc. I have pretty much given up eating out as a result.

And I'm a meat eater

Veganism is veganism whether healthy food or not...

The whole argument 'why eat something that's mimicking something you don't want to eat' is stupid tbh... many vegans love the taste of meat but just don't want to kill things for it. So they eat meat-like products which are cruelty free. I don't see why people have a problem with that? Should tofu be banned too?

I’m sick of it as a vege as I don’t want to eat plastic cheese and I can’t get a vegetarian meal anywhere now it’s either vegan or meat

I know...those waiting to pounce at vegans with petty examples of their hypocrisy are the worst. Everyone’s a hypocrite about something. No one is perfect, we’re all busy, we all cut corners somewhere. That anyone makes a small change in some way to the better good is not something to fucking peck at.

You do realise that actual real meat looks nothing like a sausage or a burger. Why do you need your meat in shapes that look nothing like animal joints?

interesting article here

Regarding plants feeling pain the only thing I recall is research which showed that in a forest, strong mature trees help direct nutrients to struggling trees through a inter-connection of roots, sort of Avatar Film style. This seemed to be intentional.

I may not be summarising correctly though, I'll see if I can find it. I never read it directly sort of while looking for something else.

Yes, it's this "perfect or nothing" bullshit. We could literally be doing everything we can and some omni is always going to pop up and say "Yeah but you accidentally stood on an ant once so all vegans are hypocrites and that means I can eat endless bacon guilt free". Because that's basically what it seems to boil down to.

Oops my bad.

Trouble is, some of the omnis on this thread have actually said pretty much that. And I've heard it way too many times.

Although it's probably telling that some of the stuff meat eaters are saying here is so nuts that it's become indistinguishable from satire.

@MyGhastIsFlabbered

My previous post wasn't directed at you, I think you might have misread? I'm also a vegan. I was being sarcastic about some of the ignorance in this thread.

@JinglingHellsBells
There is also evidence that plants feel pain just as animals do.
Could you link to it please?

It looks more like you're responding point by point!

haha touché!

@squeekums

"blah blah blah your the type i ignore." It looks more like you're responding point by point!

Cognitive dissonance is an interesting concept. I certainly used to think I could love animals and simultaneously kill them/ pay for them to be killed.

My husband is pescatarian but loves that there are so many more meat free choices!

That's funny tumble I've had an entirely different view of this thread. It shouldn't be an us and them scenario but I think the meat eaters have come off far worse than the vegans.

Yes there have been a couple of preachy vegans but they've been in the minority. But seriously guys - PREACHING/SHOUTING/GENERALLY HARASSING PEOPLE DOESN'T WORK. It just pisses people off-and pissed off people are far less likely to listen.

But some of you meat eaters are just as goady. Let's all keep it friendly eh?

Shame on me for not being a more annoying vegan

No, its a shame some feel its their right to berate people for eating meat and dairy.
The kind of vegan your supposedly ashamed of not being is the kind of vegan that gets on peoples nerves, that poeple hate, not from guilt but simply they are annoying, like yappy dogs who dont know when to shut up and leave people alone

I don't like meat eaters who refuse to see the truth about what they are eating. I think the reason they get
so angry at vegans, is they know they (the vegans) are right. Seriously, supporting industries that breed animals to be slaughtered & sold as food... how arrogant to think that's ok. The animals suffer, why? So someone can eat a fucking burger??

blah blah blah your the type i ignore. I dont think your right or feel guilt. Im a human, we eat meat and plants. For the majority being vegan is a wanky lifestyle choice and nothing more.
If you approach me eating my burger to tell me what an awful human i am, i will be angry. im eating, not awful
If you come up to me shopping and berate me for buying meat, i will be angry
What i consume is none of your business. This is where people get angry, vegans thinking they have a right to demand others eat as they do, screw that, i enjoy flavour

*You don't, sorry

You need to have a balanced meal, for every meal.

This thread is mainly the daft sort of vegans congratulating themselves and each other on how much better they are, than us 'carnists'

Enjoy your whipped protein flown from Malaysia. I'm about to put on chicken tagine. My brother killed it yesterday a few hundred yards away