A Belfast court judgment has been hailed by as a “landmark” moment in UK transgender rights by influential campaign group Stonewall.

(115 Posts)
stumbledin Wed 19-May-21 15:05:43

However, a prominent critic of transgender activism has said it looks like a way of introducing a contentious change in the law “through the back door” – rather than via a political route.

www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/belfast-court-trans-judgment-a-major-change-to-the-system-3240452

OP’s posts: |
CuriousaboutSamphire Wed 19-May-21 15:17:58

And Debbie Hayton steps in to bat it back at them, again!

EmbarrassingAdmissions Wed 19-May-21 15:20:37

Stories like that show the power of press releases in framing how stories are reported.

VickyEadieofThigh Wed 19-May-21 15:23:20

Removing the need for the conditions as stated does make it absolutely easy for any male to enter women's facilities, etc and declare himself a woman. Nobody can question this.

That the activists (along with judges and a wide range of other people) cannot understand our concerns about this speaks volumes for their contempt for women.

nauticant Wed 19-May-21 15:28:08

www.judiciaryni.uk/sites/judiciary/files/decisions/SCO11509Final%20-%20Approved.pdf

Expect incoming: oldsquare.co.uk/recognition-by-the-northern-ireland-high-court-of-a-shift-in-gender-recognition-robin-moira-white/

yeahbutnaw Wed 19-May-21 15:33:42

Has there been a statistically significant increase in incidents of violence against women in countries that have Self-ID?

MrsOvertonsWindow Wed 19-May-21 15:38:47

Wonder whether the judges had received training from Gendered Intelligence or Stonewall with their preferred versions of the law and the definition of what a woman is ?

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1394632813052321794

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TheFleegleHasLanded Wed 19-May-21 15:39:08

yeahbutnaw

Has there been a statistically significant increase in incidents of violence against women in countries that have Self-ID?

How would we know as they will have been reported as committed by ‘women’?

sanluca Wed 19-May-21 15:41:24

yeahbutnaw

Has there been a statistically significant increase in incidents of violence against women in countries that have Self-ID?


That would mean governments should actually track the consequences of mixed sex facilities at a large scale. Which they don't, except for gender neutral facilities which shows how bad it is for women. And of course all the examples where something bad happens which we are never allowed to state as we are then using one example against the whole group.

Turn it around: prove no man will ever abuse the loophole of self id to attack or spy on women first, then we can talk.

DaisiesandButtercups Wed 19-May-21 15:43:34

How would anyone know yeahbutnaw?

No-one seems to be recording accurate sex disaggregated data since the definitions of woman and man is now so contentious. Well in countries with self id the terms are now essentially meaningless.

The analysis of such data would likely be even more contentious or if accurately reported and meaningless if reported using self id.

Not to mention the fact that “violence” also appears to have a new definition too.

We must not ask such questions. It upsets certain people. The answer is impossible to know now anyway which was likely the point of the legislation.

Certainly women are suddenly much more likely to be perpetrators of violence, that much we are allowed to know.

yeahbutnaw Wed 19-May-21 15:43:42

@TheFleegleHasLanded

Unsure if you're being obtuse or if that's a genuine question.

I'll assume it's the latter. You don't need to know the gender or sex of the perpetrators to know if there's been a statistically significant increase in the rate of violence against women in countries that have self-ID policies.

For example:
* 2010: 1,000 incidents.
* 2011: 1,100 incidents
* 2012: 1,200 incidents.
...
* 2015: 1,200 incidents (Self-ID introduced)
...
* 2021: 1,200 incidents

Do you follow?

ANewCreation Wed 19-May-21 15:43:50

Has there been a statistically significant increase in incidents of violence against women in countries that have Self-ID?

More to the point, has there been a statistically significant increase in incidents of violence by 'women' in countries that have Self-ID?

Evidence from Ireland looks like 'yes'.

Monicuddle Wed 19-May-21 15:46:03

That’s a good question. If we have not seen significant increases in incidents of violence against women, does that mean that trans women do not experience greater rates of violence after all? Has there been a statistically significant decrease in violence against trans people in countries where there is self ID?

If there are increases... is that because some of those extra women are trans and experience more violence than other women, or is it because transwomen (and men) are now freely allowed into women’s spaces, putting women (and transwomen) at heightened risk?

Some clear statistics would indeed be helpful.

yeahbutnaw Wed 19-May-21 15:46:20

DaisiesandButtercups

How would anyone know yeahbutnaw?

No-one seems to be recording accurate sex disaggregated data since the definitions of woman and man is now so contentious. Well in countries with self id the terms are now essentially meaningless.

The analysis of such data would likely be even more contentious or if accurately reported and meaningless if reported using self id.

Not to mention the fact that “violence” also appears to have a new definition too.

We must not ask such questions. It upsets certain people. The answer is impossible to know now anyway which was likely the point of the legislation.

Certainly women are suddenly much more likely to be perpetrators of violence, that much we are allowed to know.

Honestly, none of that affects your ability to evidence the claim.

What you're looking for is an increase in the number of incidents. If Self-ID has the effect you think, you'd expect to see an increase in the number of incidents.

The sex of the victim and perpetrator are completely irrelevant to your ability to get this evidence.

sanluca Wed 19-May-21 15:49:53

What you're looking for is an increase in the number of incidents. If Self-ID has the effect you think, you'd expect to see an increase in the number of incidents.

Not necessarily. Women could also just take themselves out of the situation.

Can't believe someone is still arguing that women should not have single sex facilities but need to share at all times with any male who wants to.
Yeahbutnaw: it is called boundaries and women have them and transactivists do their best to erode them.

yeahbutnaw Wed 19-May-21 15:51:48

Monicuddle

That’s a good question. If we have not seen significant increases in incidents of violence against women, does that mean that trans women do not experience greater rates of violence after all? Has there been a statistically significant decrease in violence against trans people in countries where there is self ID?

If there are increases... is that because some of those extra women are trans and experience more violence than other women, or is it because transwomen (and men) are now freely allowed into women’s spaces, putting women (and transwomen) at heightened risk?

Some clear statistics would indeed be helpful.

You're arguing in bad faith.

Your comment makes no sense. If you wanted to know if trans women experience more violence than cisgender women, you'd do a cohort analysis on both groups.

By all means, please do that. I'd love to see the results.

VickyEadieofThigh Wed 19-May-21 15:52:24

Are we only concerned with violence, then? Do girls and women just have to accept the invasion of their privacy

I'ma woman who has been forced to terminate membership of my local gym because of their policy of self-id into the women's changing rooms.

I cannot countenance encountering a male in a room where I might be naked and vulnerable. I don't want to see a male changing in the same room as me.

No violence has happened - I'm just now excluded from my own space.

yeahbutnaw Wed 19-May-21 15:53:46

sanluca

*What you're looking for is an increase in the number of incidents. If Self-ID has the effect you think, you'd expect to see an increase in the number of incidents.*

Not necessarily. Women could also just take themselves out of the situation.

Can't believe someone is still arguing that women should not have single sex facilities but need to share at all times with any male who wants to.
Yeahbutnaw: it is called boundaries and women have them and transactivists do their best to erode them.

Then you'd have evidence from countries with Self-ID where women are refusing to use the toilet, surely?

The point is that Self-ID isn't a new concept. It already exists in several countries and has for several years. If these consequences you talk about are founded, you can surely provide some statistics that demonstrate it?

yeahbutnaw Wed 19-May-21 15:55:59

VickyEadieofThigh

Are we only concerned with violence, then? Do girls and women just have to accept the invasion of their privacy

I'ma woman who has been forced to terminate membership of my local gym because of their policy of self-id into the women's changing rooms.

I cannot countenance encountering a male in a room where I might be naked and vulnerable. I don't want to see a male changing in the same room as me.

No violence has happened - I'm just now excluded from my own space.

Well you've excluded yourself in this situation, right?

You weren't excluded or forced to do anything. You chose to remove yourself.

TheFleegleHasLanded Wed 19-May-21 15:57:05

sanluca

*What you're looking for is an increase in the number of incidents. If Self-ID has the effect you think, you'd expect to see an increase in the number of incidents.*

Not necessarily. Women could also just take themselves out of the situation.

Can't believe someone is still arguing that women should not have single sex facilities but need to share at all times with any male who wants to.
Yeahbutnaw: it is called boundaries and women have them and transactivists do their best to erode them.

Exactly. I know for a fact a number of women no longer use some single sex spaces and services (gym changing rooms for example) in Ireland because they are now mixed sex due to allowing men who ‘identify’ as women to have access. I know this because I know these women in real life.

Nobody is counting them are they? Why does it always have to be ‘well assaults haven’t increased’. Do women not deserve dignity and privacy as well as safety from assault by males?

TheFleegleHasLanded Wed 19-May-21 15:59:06

‘Chose’ To remove herself?

Wow. When someone shows you who they are......

sanluca Wed 19-May-21 16:01:02

Nobody is counting them are they? Why does it always have to be ‘well assaults haven’t increased’. Do women not deserve dignity and privacy as well as safety from assault by males?

Exactly. Is the bar for women being able to participate in public life, go swimming, to the gym, use public toilets, really 'not be assaulted'? Nothing about comfort and dignity? Women don't seem to deserve these very basic human rights.

sanluca Wed 19-May-21 16:02:52

TheFleegleHasLanded

‘Chose’ To remove herself?

Wow. When someone shows you who they are......


Bloody hell.... women are really seen as subhuman. Want dignity? You are not getting it, but don't worry, you can always leave.

VickyEadieofThigh Wed 19-May-21 16:03:20

TheFleegleHasLanded

‘Chose’ To remove herself?

Wow. When someone shows you who they are......

Indeed.

Tough luck, women & girls - the men are taking your spaces and you have to put up with it.

yeahbutnaw Wed 19-May-21 16:07:32

Is that a "no" on the evidence then?

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