A Belfast court judgment has been hailed by as a “landmark” moment in UK transgender rights by influential campaign group Stonewall.

[stumbledin]

However, a prominent critic of transgender activism has said it looks like a way of introducing a contentious change in the law “through the back door” – rather than via a political route.

www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/belfast-court-trans-judgment-a-major-change-to-the-system-3240452

Thanks @TheFleegleHasLanded

That's what I figured. No evidence that there are measurable consequences of self-ID.

One more incident would be too many. One more woman or girl is too many.

@yeahbutnaw

Is that a "no" on the evidence then?

Given that your view is that all women who (for whatever reason) cannot even face the idea of encountering a man in their changing rooms have "chosen" not to use them, how realistic might evidence gathered be?

I suppose your view of women who don't want to be incarcerated in prisons with males is that they "chose" to be there by being convicted of a crime and handed a custodial sentence?

Women - show evidence that letting biological males into your space may increase the chance you could be harmed. Otherwise you're talking crap basically.

@yeahbutnaw

Thanks *@TheFleegleHasLanded*

That's what I figured. No evidence that there are measurable consequences of self-ID.

How might we measure women like me who have had no option, because of our inability to encounter men in our changing rooms, but to cease using them?

Of course, you don't think that's an issue - do you?

@yeahbutnaw

Is that a "no" on the evidence then?

Oh behave! You know full well that the evidence you want is tainted by the morally repugnant practice of recording all crimes, pre and post sentencing, in the gender the defendant chooses. IPSO makes this a requirement for newspapers; MoJ doesn't collate data on transwomen because they don't keep records on transwomen; etc.

We KNOW that there has been an increase in violent crimes committed by women but we have no idea how many of those violent crimes were committed by females because that data is not collated.

I know you know this because you have been on other threads where this has been discussed, FOIs discussed and specific individuals discussed.

You can post your disingenuous questions as often as you like. We can all see through it!

My DD 12 has been subject to sexually explicit comments from men, walking home from the bus in her school uniform. This is what some men will do in broad daylight, in plain sight. I hate to think what they'd do when nobody's watching.

Should DD have to chance being alone in a gym changing room because a biological male claims to be a woman?

Or is it best she chooses to exclude herself?

I say the evidence of mixed sex facilities and the negative impact on women, is sufficient to show that mixed sex facilities are detrimental to the participation of women in public life.

I can't help it that yeahbutnaw doesn't understand mixed sex and single gender is exactly the same.

Stop tagging me, I’m on the thread yeahbutnaw

There has been lots of evidence in the UK due to organisations getting ‘ahead of the law’, it’s very easy to find, one example is the vast majority of sexual assaults (including voyeurism) in changing rooms take place in mixed sex changing rooms, not single sex. It’s been posted on here frequently.

Sexual assaults and even rapes of female prisoners by men who ‘self-identified’ as women have been talked about on here and in mainstream newspapers. You must have missed those I suppose.

Surely the onus is on transwomen to prove that they are at significant risk of harm from others if they use the facilities of their biological sex? Then if such evidence exists, have a conversation about how to mitigate that risk.

Don't assume there is a risk and then assume the solution.

But very kind of you to encourage us to post all these facts again for the lurkers and those new to the subject. So kind of you yeahbutnaw, really helpful.

Here's evidence. Male and female offending patterns are different. What on earth could cause a massive 59% increase in the Irish Women’s prison population since 2015?

“The daily average number of women in custody has continued to increase year on year since 2015,” it says. “The number of women committed to prison (excluding fines) has increased from 278 in 2017 to 442 in 2018, an increase of 59 per cent.”

www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/number-of-sex-offenders-in-irish-prisons-forecast-to-rise-in-coming-years-1.4024265?mode=amp#aoh=16214369182115&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

When did self-id begin in Ireland?
That'll be 2015.

@sanluca

I say the evidence of mixed sex facilities and the negative impact on women, is sufficient to show that mixed sex facilities are detrimental to the participation of women in public life.

I can't help it that yeahbutnaw doesn't understand mixed sex and single gender is exactly the same.

I mean you didn't even provide that as evidence.

Do you think policy should be based on feelings alone? Or should it be evidence-based?

If the latter, why is everyone here so reluctant to provide and discuss evidence?

@yeahbutnaw
You asked: Has there been a statistically significant increase in incidents of violence against women in countries that have Self-ID? Your point being, there hasn't. No one else mentioned violence stats prior to that post.
The claim is yours therefore the burden of proof is on you.

Please could we see the government statistics that back up your assertion that violence against women was static before and after self ID were introduced.

Burden of proof fallacy.

Do YOU follow or are you going to be obtuse?

‘Show me the evidence’

Provides evidence

‘Show me the evidence’

Provides evidence

‘Show me the evidence’

Provides evidence

You will get bored before we do yeahbutnaw. Many of us are used to dealing with toddlers.....

[quote yeahbutnaw]@TheFleegleHasLanded

Unsure if you're being obtuse or if that's a genuine question.

I'll assume it's the latter. You don't need to know the gender or sex of the perpetrators to know if there's been a statistically significant increase in the rate of violence against women in countries that have self-ID policies.

For example:

• 2010: 1,000 incidents.
• 2011: 1,100 incidents
• 2012: 1,200 incidents. ...
• 2015: 1,200 incidents (Self-ID introduced) ...
• 2021: 1,200 incidents

Do you follow?[/quote]
Figures like this do not show self id has no impact as you cannot tell what the outcome would be without self id. In your example self ID may now account for 90% of assaults but we have no way to know.

@sanluca

Nobody is counting them are they? Why does it always have to be ‘well assaults haven’t increased’. Do women not deserve dignity and privacy as well as safety from assault by males?

Exactly. Is the bar for women being able to participate in public life, go swimming, to the gym, use public toilets, really 'not be assaulted'? Nothing about comfort and dignity? Women don't seem to deserve these very basic human rights.

If a woman decided to remove herself from a changing room upon the arrival of a trans woman, that would be interpreted as transphobic violence.

I would imagine that most statistics of violence against women include incidents of domestic violence, which isn't particularly relevant to the question of transwomen in female spaces. So I don't see the point of using this as evidence?

Also, surely the most prevalent worry is voyeurism (which may not even be detected by its victims) and women and girls feeling vulnerable or embarrassed having male bodied people in their private spaces. No statistics for that, yeahbutnaw. Have a look at Jessica Yaniv's social media convos about being in female toilets. No violence as such, but what sickening behaviour. Your question about increases in statistics of violence against women is way too simplistic.

Do you think policy should be based on feelings alone? OMG but that made me truly laugh out loud - I woke the dog

Are you sure you wanted to say that out loud yeahbutnaw ?

There can be no accurate data about women and violence if the category "women" has been expanded to include whatever men choose to be included in it. It is like wondering about the average age of dogs if cats are also included in the data. (And you can bet cats would be as awkward as possible about it, because, well, cats.)

If a trans woman suffers violence, that surely should be recorded as a woman suffering violence, in a situation in which self-ID trans women are officially recorded as being women. (Actually, it seems not unless they choose it to be: they are women for some purposes and not for others, which is decidedly confusing and messes up any attempt at getting accurate data about the matter.)

It is also impossible to define "violence" if a woman being gang-raped is put into the same category as a trans woman being addressed or referred to by someone who uses a pronoun for them of which they disapprove, and called violence in the same way.

And when vilifying a woman in disgusting and strongly threatening terms is not defined as hate-speech (though misgendering a trans man or woman is) clearly there will no official record of hate-speech against women.

Someone linked to a study in Norway showing that when self-ID came in offences by 'women' increased fourfold.

My memory might be failing me on some parts of that, does anyone else remember?

Those figures of YeahbutNaws are not real statistics (the 1200) They are imaginary figures kindly supplied to illustrate the concept of providing statistics (that the imaginary statistics show no change is just convenient). It is a spectacularly patronising post, even by yeahbutnaws standards.

@MapGirlExtraordinaire

Someone linked to a study in Norway showing that when self-ID came in offences by 'women' increased fourfold.

My memory might be failing me on some parts of that, does anyone else remember?

I think I remember it being in Norwegian, which I don't read fluently... But that may have been some other study.

Many of us are used to dealing with toddlers.....

[merail] Did we all see the news item about the chap who hijacked a school bus with kindergarten students (US) and ended up demanding to get put off the bus way before his destination because he pretty much crumbled under the onslaught of kindergarten questions?

“The kids were the ones that actually got the gentleman off of the bus and they pretty much had my back as much as my concerns were with them,” Corbin explained. “At the end when they started questioning him, it seemed to have frustrated him because his main objective were to get to the next town, but I think we were only on the road about four miles and he just got frustrated with the questions and just told me to stop the bus and get off. All y’all get off now.”

www.wsbtv.com/news/local/sc-school-bus-driver-says-kindergartners-curiosity-helped-stop-armed-hijacking/L3MPZMLCFNHSJGBGHR5QAQN43M/

[/merail]

Yeahbutnaw I think the first post on this thread has the information that will help see why it is impossible to answer your question - as the complete data is not available, so we cannot accurately interpret the data we do have. 58% increase in women committed to prison for sex offences between 2015-19. Not possible to say whether that increase is due to increasing numbers of trans people committed to women’s prisons - as that information is not available. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4248412-Tonia-Antoniazzi-MP-calls-for-biological-sex-of-criminals-to-be-accurately-recorded