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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Times - Women must be heard on transgender identity, says new equalities chief

30 replies

NutellaEllaElla · 15/05/2021 08:13

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-must-be-heard-on-transgender-identity-says-new-equalities-chief-kqttljxmd

"In her first interview since taking office, the incoming chairwoman of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission said it was “entirely reasonable” for people to challenge the biological status of women who were born as men."

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/05/2021 08:46

Another thread with share token to article

Maya and the new EHRC chairwoman in the Times! www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4245259-Maya-and-the-new-EHRC-chairwoman-in-the-Times

Lifeaintalwaysempty · 15/05/2021 09:36

Brilliant isn’t it

NutellaEllaElla · 15/05/2021 09:38

I'm really getting encouraged that the tide is turning towards sanity.

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Lemmen · 15/05/2021 09:42

Holy shit. That's amazing.

AlfonsoTheTerrible · 15/05/2021 09:48

That's great news.

DadDadDad · 15/05/2021 09:51

Reading the quote in the OP (admittedly without context), is it saying what you think it is saying? The biological status of someone who was born a man [boy?] is male, so those who "challenge that" are surely some of those who advocate for gender identity and would say a transwoman is not male. So are we being told that people who say "anyone who identifies as a woman is female" are reasonable?

NutellaEllaElla · 15/05/2021 09:54

Read it and the context makes it clear.

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Alternista · 15/05/2021 09:55

Oh god. Please let sanity be returning 🙌🏼

thepuredrop · 15/05/2021 10:13

@DadDadDad

Reading the quote in the OP (admittedly without context), is it saying what you think it is saying? The biological status of someone who was born a man [boy?] is male, so those who "challenge that" are surely some of those who advocate for gender identity and would say a transwoman is not male. So are we being told that people who say "anyone who identifies as a woman is female" are reasonable?
Baroness Falkner is saying that challenging whether someone who identifies as a different sex to their birth sex, is actually a different sex, is reasonable. Of course, she is not saying what her belief is, but using ‘we’ and ‘they’ to indicate that society might disagree with a gender critical position, but it is still a protected position under freedom of belief. Yes, the opposite view (that people actually are a different sex to their birth sex) is similarly protected. But, no-one has lost their job, been silenced or vilified as bigots for saying some men are women. It doesn’t mean that everyone has to agree with a gender critical belief, just that there can be no punitive consequences. I think that calling people transphobic for expressing such a belief might not be legally justified (for defamation, etc, but we’ll have to see).
thepuredrop · 15/05/2021 10:14

Baroness Falkner also makes reference to freedom of speech. I wonder if we’ll be allowed to say transwomen are men and the appropriate pronoun is he.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/05/2021 10:19

I think that calling people transphobic for expressing such a belief might not be legally justified (for defamation, etc, but we’ll have to see).

If that were to be the case, defamation lawyers are going to get very rich!

thepuredrop · 15/05/2021 10:30

Yes, should it be the case, lawyers are quids in!

Abitofalark · 15/05/2021 16:16

Luckily there's a special provision for freedom of religion or belief. That's how a woman's right is protected in the context of this particular comment by the head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

Beyond that, if there wasn't such a provision, a woman has/ ought to have the right as a woman in any case to express her views on something that affects her. In addition she has / should have the right under the Equality Act 2010 which has written in provision for exemptions and for single sex provision in certain circumstances.

stumbledin · 15/05/2021 20:51

In her first interview since taking office, the incoming chairwoman of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission said it was “entirely reasonable” for people to challenge the biological status of women who were born as men.

Baroness Falkner of Margravine added it was a “freedom of belief” the commission was determined to protect.

“Someone can believe that people who self identify as a different sex are not the different sex that they self identify,” she said. “A lot of people would find this an entirely reasonable belief.”

.. the commission has now backed Forstater’s appeal, arguing that the judge incorrectly interpreted the law that should have protected her right to freedom of belief and speech.

“The principles are absolutely clear, which is why we took a position to intervene in the case,” Falkner said. “The principles are that freedom of belief is protected.

... Falkner said she was concerned that current levels of abuse were making it difficult for people to exercise their fundamental rights — protected by the EHRC — such as freedom of speech and belief.

“There is too much self censorship going on — certainly in terms of gender critical theory,” she said. “And what happens to women who raise that does seem to be an effect on them of abuse and stigmatisation.

“We ought to be able to have a debate about it, even when we disagree with them, without them feeling so isolated.”

I've just pulled out these quotes because I think it is right given her position to refer to it as a matter of belief, because the TRAs saying it is what they believe. She is saying they may believe that but others can equally believe the opposite and should not be bullied or silenced for saying it. (Given that the context is the really stupid remark by the judge saying MF's beliefs were not worthy of respect - idiot!)

stumbledin · 15/05/2021 20:56

Just as a bit of any irony I added a comment to the article last night - but it wasn't accepted. Maybe Iwas a bit over excited so used immoderate language or something but along the lines of it was reassuring to know that the values I shared with MF were worthy or respect.

Any how seems freedom of expression on the Times is only as far as their moderators think fit!

stumbledin · 16/05/2021 01:10

She is getting very little support on twitter twitter.com/KishwerFalkner/status/1393601803372089348 Sad

Trappedonanisland · 16/05/2021 01:25

Oh please let the tide be turning away from all the nonsense 🙏

NutellaEllaElla · 16/05/2021 07:02

It's interesting to me @stumbledin that the post you linked to has very few replies and interactions at all, but that there are almost twice as many likes (39) as replies (20) is positive. In comparison to Maya Forstater's tweet of the Times article twitter.com/MForstater/status/1393551615559340033 which has 1690 likes and the nature of the replies are overwhelmingly positive. I wonder if it is a reflection of number of followers?

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NutellaEllaElla · 16/05/2021 07:03

Having said all of that, I put no credence to Twitter having any semblance to real live society.

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ChoosandChipsandSealingWax · 16/05/2021 10:02

She’s getting a bit of a pile on from the TRAs on Twitter (ironically, rather proving her point...!)

Can we please add our support for her ASAP though? Need to balance out the hate, and I really don’t want any roll back/rethinking on this!!!

twitter.com/KishwerFalkner/status/1393601803372089348

YetAnotherSpartacus · 16/05/2021 11:41

This is such WONDERFUL news.

It feels like a rainbow at the end of a deluge. The raindrops are hanging on the ends of leaves and making the spiders' webs glisten, the birds are coming out to sing, the air feels fresh and one can smell the fresh, clean earth.

manatsu · 16/05/2021 11:44

mobile.twitter.com/mimmymum/status/1393688984862199809

Yeah, there are literally no organisations supporting trans people and prioritising gender over sex. None at all. Except...almost all of them. Including almost all of the big companies. www.transrightsarehumanrights.co.uk/

Don't get me wrong, individual trans voices might not have a huge amount of sway, but to pretend that GC people have 'captured' most organisations seems like DARVO. I don't see how having the Facebook and Google and Amazon on your side, not to mention the UN and the IOC and so on, makes you the most marginalised group ever.

manatsu · 16/05/2021 11:45

LOL, 'the facebook', I managed to make myself sound about six decades older there.

I need to be more careful when I edit posts

partyatthepalace · 16/05/2021 11:58

God that is encouraging.

Fernlake · 16/05/2021 13:23

[quote ChoosandChipsandSealingWax]She’s getting a bit of a pile on from the TRAs on Twitter (ironically, rather proving her point...!)

Can we please add our support for her ASAP though? Need to balance out the hate, and I really don’t want any roll back/rethinking on this!!!

twitter.com/KishwerFalkner/status/1393601803372089348[/quote]
Yes, she's getting some minor pushback. But none of it sounds even remotely reasonable. Informing her that trans people will die as a result, is not really the way to establish the credibility of ones argument. What with that and all the circular definitions of women and female, I don't suppose she's much bothered.

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