Agoraphobic mum-to-be forced to go to hospital for the birth

[UppityPuppity]

Judge states she doesn’t have the capacity to decide to have a home birth.

Not enough information to form a view about the supposed risks, except that I am so sad for her and wish her and the baby well.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57108649

It's not about the mother - she is nothing but an vessel and incubator.

That is a shame. Have to assume of her mum, partner, medics and judge all agree then there must be something in it.

Hope she can get help with her fear so she can manage to leave more easily when the time comes.

Awful, but judges do not take these decisions lightly, The UK courts have a history of defending patients' right to make decisions that their doctors consider wrong or foolish, as long as the patient has the capacity to make the choice, Jehovah's witnesses, for example, have been allowed to refuse life-saving transfusions, except in rare situations where the courts feel they are not making the decision of their own free will.

I'm a bit torn here.

It's her body, and her choice. I get that. But is it right that her baby could potentially die or suffer life changing medical complications as Mum won't go into hospital?

And how on earth do you parent when you can't leave the house?

I think it would be better to provide adequate mental health care to this woman to help her with the Agoraphobia in the first instance to help her prepare and hopefully work towards overcoming it rather than forcing her into an environment that she doesn't want to be in.

I hope that mental health and social services are able to step up and support this family when the baby is born.

@PanamaPattie

It's not about the mother - she is nothing but an vessel and incubator.

That is totally unfair and has no basis in law. The baby has no legal entity until it's born. The court is not allowed to put its interests before the mother, even if an individual judge wished to do so. The decision can only have been made on the basis of the mother's best interests because there is no basis in law for any other option.

It does sound like there are risk factors that mean a home birth wouldn't necessarily be in her best interests. Although if she's in full fight or flight response that doesn't sound like it's going to end in a lovely calm natural birth either.

@PanamaPattie

It's not about the mother - she is nothing but an vessel and incubator.

Ffs. She lacks mental capacity. Women have free choice over where they give birth if they have capacity and even if this harms the unborn child. This woman doesn’t and that’s why a decision was made for her. Comments like this are very unhelpful. It’s exceptionally rare and it’s definitely not the case that the law views the woman as nothing but a vessel. It really doesn’t. In fact, the fetus has no legal recognition until it’s born.

This is bizarre - there is absolutely no way this is the full story.

You are allowed to request a home birth for any reason. As I understand it, the NHS can't refuse although they can strongly advise you against it.

A home birth in a low risk pregnancy has no "increased risk" compared to hospital birth. Probably there are factors either about the pregnancy or possibly the home environment which increase the risk, but they've reported it as though home birth in itself is some terribly risky irresposible decision, which it isn't!

I also don't see why her mother or partner's opinion is of any relevance in the slightest it should be between her and her midwife and/or consultant.

I also don't understand how she will be able to bring up a child without ever leaving the house.

We don't know what the evidence of catastrophic birth risk is. There may be some crucial medical info here.

I would have to question the risk to her and the baby if taken to the hospital by force.

Poor woman. And poor baby. Wonder why she thought getting pg was a good idea if she can't leave her home? Getting treatment for her agoraphobia first would have been more sensible.

I agree with the judge. Imagine if she had a home birth and things went terribly wrong? Who would get the blame?

There almost definitely is some medical background which is being withheld due to confidentiality, in which case it's really shit reporting, making it sound like she's being silly and obstinate, rather than somebody in need of compassion.

@BertieBotts

This is bizarre - there is absolutely no way this is the full story.

You are allowed to request a home birth for any reason. As I understand it, the NHS can't refuse although they can strongly advise you against it.

A home birth in a low risk pregnancy has no "increased risk" compared to hospital birth. Probably there are factors either about the pregnancy or possibly the home environment which increase the risk, but they've reported it as though home birth in itself is some terribly risky irresposible decision, which it isn't!

I also don't see why her mother or partner's opinion is of any relevance in the slightest it should be between her and her midwife and/or consultant.

Her mum and partner’s views are relevant because the woman herself doesn’t have the capacity to decide. The court has to make a decision based on what is best for her and hears evidence from those close to her.

This is exceptionally rare. There is absolutely no power to force a woman who does have mental capacity to do this, even if the baby will be placed at extreme risk or even through the mother’s decisions.

There's obviously more to this.

I can also see that in an emergency situation, her fear of leaving the house could make things a lot lot worse.

I suppose a more controlled environment would be better for mother and baby.

"Mr Justice Holman said evidence showed there was a risk there could be a "catastrophe" if she had a home birth."
This quote tells us that there is much more than is being reported. It wouldn't have been a decision taken lightly, and it doesn't sound as though this is a Giliad thing. Also they probably don't have the resources to have the medical team they think they will need on standby to go to the ladies home.

What a shame. I wish we knew a little more information, but there will be a reason for that.

I would question, though, that if the woman has been judged "lacking in the mental capacity to decide where to give birth" - could it be reasonably argued that she lacks the mental capacity to consent to unprotected sex and the consequences of that?

Is this more than "just" agoraphobia.

The pregnancy must be high risk or they wouldn’t be pushing her to go to the hospital. In that case, the risk to the baby definitely has to be taken into account.
I would also be concerned about the mother’s capability to take the baby to GP appts, vaccinations etc. Also what if the baby was poorly? I had to take my DD up to A&E quite a few times in her first couple of years.

@murbblurb

I also don't understand how she will be able to bring up a child without ever leaving the house.

We don’t know whether she will be. It could be that social services intend to apply to place the baby in foster care after the birth due to the mother’s mental health condition.

A home birth in a low risk pregnancy has no "increased risk" compared to hospital birth. Probably there are factors either about the pregnancy or possibly the home environment which increase the risk, but they've reported it as though home birth in itself is some terribly risky irresposible decision, which it isn't!

Agree that the reporting is poor. The court would not be preventing her from having a home birth if it was safe for her to do so, because that could not be in her best interests. The problem may be that she has declined antenatal care, so the midwives won't know if she is low-risk or not.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

What a shame. I wish we knew a little more information, but there will be a reason for that.

I would question, though, that if the woman has been judged "lacking in the mental capacity to decide where to give birth" - could it be reasonably argued that she lacks the mental capacity to consent to unprotected sex and the consequences of that?

Is this more than "just" agoraphobia.

Indeed, Bernadette. My mind leapt to the same conclusion.

@PanamaPattie

It's not about the mother - she is nothing but an vessel and incubator.

I disagree: there is obviously more to this story. The judge has access to the woman's medical history; we don't.

If she hasn't left the house for four years (since the age of 17) she might very well find it difficult to raise a child, even with the support of her partner and mother.

The reporting is very poor (and potentially very scaremongering). There simply isn't enough information here to have any kind of informed opinion, but legally, there must be some form of risk factor rendering a home birth as a risk.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

What a shame. I wish we knew a little more information, but there will be a reason for that.

I would question, though, that if the woman has been judged "lacking in the mental capacity to decide where to give birth" - could it be reasonably argued that she lacks the mental capacity to consent to unprotected sex and the consequences of that?

Is this more than "just" agoraphobia.

I doubt she lacks capacity in the general sense. But you can have a discrete delusion and lack capacity regarding that, while still retaining capacity to make decisions about other issues.