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Original poster

Agoraphobic mum-to-be forced to go to hospital for the birth

259 replies

UppityPuppity · 13/05/2021 21:48

Judge states she doesn’t have the capacity to decide to have a home birth.

Not enough information to form a view about the supposed risks, except that I am so sad for her and wish her and the baby well.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57108649

OP posts:

DollyTots · 14/05/2021 07:56

Posted too quickly, sorry. I had to be induced on the drip in the end and surprised myself with how calm I was. It was all ok and fortunately had a good birth experience.

There must be an extenuating circumstance we’re not aware of here that puts her at more risk. Midwifes were aware of my issues and had no problem in helping me try with a home birth. If it had got to the point where not only my family, my husband, health professionals and the court were ruling me as having no capacity - I would have been completely enraged. Not only that but so, so vulnerable. As if it isn’t overwhelming enough, you now have the prospect of having to face your phobia in a truly horrific way.

After the birth of my DD, it completely pushed me to go out of my comfort zones and within 6 months I was completely recovered, if not better than I was before. Still going well to this day 5 years later

So my feeling is there must have been a reason they wouldn’t allow this beyond the agoraphobia. It meant so much to me that I was supported in at least trying and the move to hospital was ultimately within my power to take myself. This lady needs some serious support to get her there, so at least she feels she’s doing of it of her own volition. To offer her anything less seems simply barbaric.

NailsNeedDoing · 14/05/2021 07:58

If she wants a home birth, she can pay for it. She doesn’t have the right to insist in whatever she wants from the NHS.

Why should the NHS risk being blamed for a situation that could lead to potential harm to either mother or baby when they don’t think it’s safe to deliver the baby at home?

People need to stop thinking they have the right to demand whatever they want from the NHS just because they are pregnant. It is not a private service.

takemetothelakes · 14/05/2021 08:34

@NailsNeedDoing

If she wants a home birth, she can pay for it. She doesn’t have the right to insist in whatever she wants from the NHS.

Why should the NHS risk being blamed for a situation that could lead to potential harm to either mother or baby when they don’t think it’s safe to deliver the baby at home?

People need to stop thinking they have the right to demand whatever they want from the NHS just because they are pregnant. It is not a private service.

Have you read anything on this thread?

Crazycatlady83 · 14/05/2021 09:01

The problem is, if the court did not make this decision and the worst happened, what would we say then? "Oh well, woman and her baby die in labour because the court failed to intervene".

It's clearly not a decision anyone involved has taken lightly.

ohsuzannah · 14/05/2021 12:10

That poor poor woman. Is she going to go quietly? I doubt it very much. Is force going to be used? Almost certainly. I hope for her sake she is provided with therapy to ease her distress and in my opinion, the judge should have ruled this.

ChiaraRimini · 14/05/2021 12:20

Read the judgement posted below by BettyBag.
This happened over 2 months ago.
She had been in labour for 72 hours and was at risk of stillbirth, sepsis etc. She had previously agreed to a hospital transfer of needed but changed her mind while in labour.
Distressing situation but one in which the judge called it right IMO

Embracelife · 14/05/2021 12:54

[quote BettyBag]www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCOP/2021/18.html[/quote]
This read the full facts as far as they are public..do you want her to continue with home birth?

hours hearing that had commenced at 10.00pm with respect to GH, a 26-year-old woman who suffers from anxiety, depression and acute agoraphobia and who had gone into labour at home nearly 72 hours earlier but who had thereafter suffered an obstructed labour. Within this context, it became apparent that GH required urgent in-patient obstetric treatment and a possible emergency caesarean section. GH was, however, refusing to agree to that course of action.

Zzelda · 14/05/2021 15:29

Is that the same case? It's a different judge and the facts are different.

CovidCorvid · 14/05/2021 15:36

@NailsNeedDoing

If she wants a home birth, she can pay for it. She doesn’t have the right to insist in whatever she wants from the NHS.

Why should the NHS risk being blamed for a situation that could lead to potential harm to either mother or baby when they don’t think it’s safe to deliver the baby at home?

People need to stop thinking they have the right to demand whatever they want from the NHS just because they are pregnant. It is not a private service.

Women do actually have the right to insist on a home birth regardless of the risks as long as they have capacity to make that decision.

Zzelda · 14/05/2021 15:42

I must say, reading that decision - even though it doesn't seem to relate to this case - I really do not envy judges having to make that sort of decision for other people.

AlfonsoTheTerrible · 14/05/2021 15:54

@Zzelda

Is that the same case? It's a different judge and the facts are different.

It must be a different case. However, the principle is relevant.

ToesAndFingersCrossed · 14/05/2021 16:27

I think the case shared by BettyBag is a different case.

To whoever said that if someone wants a home birth they should pay for it - home births are cheaper for the NHS than hospital deliveries whether vaginal or caesarean.

This case sounds horrific for all involved. I hope in the coming months more information is made available about circumstances to reassure women that a precedent regarding capacity is not being set - women can and do disengage with maternity services entirely (as is their right to do so) due to fear of such things happening. Missing out on vital antenatal care could be a question of life or death for women as in the example above for cases of placenta previa. My hope is that the case has been well scrutinised and the correct decision made, but that other women aren’t scared away from maternity services. I’m all for freebirthing if you make an informed choice to do it but if it’s a choice made out of fear then I don’t think it’s safe.

AlfonsoTheTerrible · 14/05/2021 17:16

I sometimes feel a bit impatient with "x has the right to [ ]". The other side of a right is a responsibility but no one seems to mention that.

NiceGerbil · 14/05/2021 19:28

Nails do you feel that way about all medical procedures on the NHS?

Irrespective of the any patients medical history, situation, mental state. Everyone should get what is cheapest in whatever way is most cost effective for the NHS and irrespective of the needs of the individual patient and and potential impacts on them, their families etc.

How far do you want to go?.
It's cheaper to amputate a limb with a saw on the ward than give them an anaesthetic and take up an operating room. That's the way it used to be done.

I'm sure you have a line in your save money at all costs plan.

I have a feeling it might be anything which isn't to do with giving birth. Maybe 'cosmetic' procedures as well? Reproductive health maybe. That sort of thing.

When you start picking and choosing which patients get treated according to their situation and which get what they're given even if it has massive repurcussions... Then it's heading to a pretty bad place.

Birth and post natal care are already treated really weirdly and to the detriment of lots of women.

PurpleWh1teGreen · 14/05/2021 21:43

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

What a shame. I wish we knew a little more information, but there will be a reason for that.

I would question, though, that if the woman has been judged "lacking in the mental capacity to decide where to give birth" - could it be reasonably argued that she lacks the mental capacity to consent to unprotected sex and the consequences of that?

Is this more than "just" agoraphobia.

My thoughts too unfortunately. How has this poor lady ended up in a relationship and become pregnant?

This is probably a hugely complex situation.

Quietlyloud · 15/05/2021 12:17

Okay, I struggle to leave my house for anxiety reasons, I rarely do but I obviously can when I have to. I also wanted a home birth but it didn’t end up happening and I needed to be induced in hospital anyway, I’m not sure this mother is in the right. If she can’t leave her house then what’s to happen if the baby is born and needs critical care or whatever, will she just stay in her home while baby is whisked away? What if she needs help will she simply refuse to leave? Being in the hospital is about the baby and unfortunately for the mother once that baby is ready to be born it has rights and I don’t think she should risk the child because of her own mental health issues and I say this as someone with plenty of issues myself.

Roboticcarrot · 15/05/2021 12:36

It isn't just oh agoraphobic so doesn't like leaving the house it will be fine to drag her in, they will have made the assessment, and the bar is pretty high for being deemed to not have capacity. Possibly in this scenario its because they deem the all consuming fear of leaving the house to be too great to consider the information to make an informed decision. The scan was down at home which shows as far as reasonably possible it seems they have facilitated. I'm guessing a lot find it more emotive as there is a baby involved, but it isn't that unusual for people with extreme MH conditions to be either denied or forced into treatment- my neighbour has a court order for a monthly injection of her medication which is enforced if she doesn't wish to comply, or electrode therapy is scarily still used, and often the person has zero choice. Imo its part of a wider debate, rather than woman having no autonomy over her choices.

MissBarbary · 15/05/2021 12:50

@Zzelda

Is that the same case? It's a different judge and the facts are different.

It is a different case.

Justice Holman, of the Family Division of the High Court, gave the ruling May 13, although details of the woman and the National Health Service (NHS) hospital involved were not released due to legal reasons

MissBarbary · 15/05/2021 13:34

Celia Kitzinger is wading in on this case and it's clear from her tweets this is a different case.

Kitzinger is miffed she wasn't allowed to be an observer.

mobile.twitter.com/KitzingerCelia/status/1393069200223227906

Roboticcarrot · 15/05/2021 13:48

[quote MissBarbary]Celia Kitzinger is wading in on this case and it's clear from her tweets this is a different case.

Kitzinger is miffed she wasn't allowed to be an observer.

mobile.twitter.com/KitzingerCelia/status/1393069200223227906[/quote]
Some of those tweets seem to be forgetting that this a real person, annoyed that her medical risk and full MH hasn't been disclosed so they can make judgement on social media. I do agree that the potential implications are far reaching, but I hate the social media stance that people become public property once embroiled in something like this. I wonder if midwives can refuse to attend a home birth as an individual if they deem the risk to be too high?

NiceGerbil · 15/05/2021 13:56

'How has this poor lady ended up in a relationship and become pregnant?'

Why wouldn't she?
Maybe she's been with him since before she became ill!

That comment is really odd.

NiceGerbil · 15/05/2021 13:59

The judgement that she can be removed from her home using proportionate force (whatever that means when your nearing your due date) to the hospital when she is near due date. Meaning potentially being kept there for weeks. Is back on the table then.

So the arguments I made at the start of the thread still stand for me.

BertieBotts · 15/05/2021 18:04

I would guess that a "planned delivery" means either induction or c-section - it seems unlikely they would keep her in hospital for weeks.

NiceGerbil · 15/05/2021 18:07

'He concluded that "proportionate" force could be used by specially-trained staff if she refused to leave home on a specified day near her due date.'

Yes good point I really really hope that you are right.

I just don't really trust the authorities to look after women and children generally tbh. So much stuff over and over in the news for years has left me cynical.

gottakeeponmovin · 15/05/2021 18:16

I'm more concerned she's having a baby. How is she going to cope?

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