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I want to make sure that Irish politicians can't deny their part in Self ID

(31 Posts)
Mermoose Mon 09-Dec-19 09:14:40

Self ID was introduced in Ireland by lobbyists who purposely avoided public discussion of it.
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/12/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/

Since then I've written to politicians explaining that gender critical people are not motivated by hatred but have well-founded concerns about sex-based rights, poor medical practice and freedom of speech. All I ever ask is for free and open discussion on this topic. Usually I receive no reply, or at best, one promising a response at a later date (which never comes).

Meanwhile, Irish parties not only support Self ID without explaining why, but they actively discourage discussion. Candidates from both the Greens and the Social Democrats have used the word 'terf'. When Primetime ran an episode on the effect of Self ID and transitioning in young people, Regina Doherty of Fine Gael criticised it for doing so. mobile.twitter.com/ReginaDo/status/1087840022265503744

I think that Self ID, belief in innate gender identity, and denial of biological sex, are all going to turn out to harm a lot of people, trans people included. In time, trying to silence criticism will look, not like a woke vote-winner, but like the arrogance, authoritarianism and stupidity it is.

In the meantime, people get harmed. Because for politicians in Ireland, the safe bet is supporting all this and demonising gender critical people. We need to change that. We need them to wake up and really think about this, and let opposing views be heard.

I think the way to do this is to make sure that they know they can't wash their hands of this if it all turns out the way we think it will. I'm hoping that Irish women & men on here would be interested in a letter-writing campaign. Here's my idea:

We choose a few individuals from each party. We write to them, clearly setting out the possible problems with self ID and current medical treatments. We ask for open debate. And we tell them that the reason several of us are writing the same letter to them, is so that they cannot deny they knew about these issues.

Cuntysnark Mon 09-Dec-19 09:52:42

I’m not in Ireland but like your thinking.

MadamBatty Mon 09-Dec-19 09:56:15

I’m in, what do you want me to do?

ludog Mon 09-Dec-19 10:25:47

I'm in too.

Twistables Mon 09-Dec-19 10:44:02

I'm in. It's a great idea. What do we do next?

Mermoose Mon 09-Dec-19 10:46:19

Great! I'm up to my eyes with work just now, I just had to post this after reading the James Kirkup piece, it made me so angry that there was deliberate silencing on this.

I'm going to do up a template letter and maybe people here will have suggestions (or post your own in the meantime if you want). We'll collect the main points that we want to make. I don't think it even needs to be a lot of people who do this - ten posted letters to a politician, ten people all ready to back each other up later if the politician tries to deny knowledge of the other side of this debate - should be enough to at least make them think about it.

So first, let's get the main points we want to make. Then we'll choose the politicians we're contacting. Then we aim for ten people to write to each politician, by post. Does that sound good?

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo Mon 09-Dec-19 11:06:31

I'm in too.
I would like to know the risk assessments taken when they put a transwoman sex offender in the female estate.I'd like to know if any polititions have an issue with this.

3timeslucky Mon 09-Dec-19 11:55:07

I don't think any of them have considered the "What Ifs" (or have a clue about the "But that never happens"). So yes I'm interested.

OhHolyJesus Mon 09-Dec-19 11:55:33

I'm in too.

Mermoose Mon 09-Dec-19 13:42:15

Points I think we need to make. Please add/expand:

1. Politicians seem to be taking into consideration one set of interests only, on this issue. Those lobbying appear to have intentionally evaded public debate (reference Denton's report).

2. There seems to have been no discussion and no consideration of how trans rights conflict with sex-based rights.
Eg: in prisons. From the Irish Law Gazette, "Criminal defence lawyer Robert Purcell says that the Gender Recognition Act 2015 has placed the State in an impossible position with regard to transgender prisoners."

www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

Any more examples?

3. It has become taboo to criticise the medical aspect, making it difficult for care providers to speak out & for parents to pose legitimate questions. (reference Marcus Evans & others who have left GIDs)

4. This issue raises problems regarding freedom of speech/ freedom of thought. Reference cases of Maya Forstater & Fair Cop, treatment of GC academics.

5. It's possible that the trans rights movement will have the opposite effect of the one a lot of its supporters wish it to have. Many supporters talk about breaking sexist stereotypes, but the concept of innate gender identity is often spoken about in terms of sexist stereotypes.

SoftDay Mon 09-Dec-19 14:17:51

Great idea, Mermoose. Count me in! Now is a good time for action, before the post-Brexit election. If we achieve nothing else, I would like it confirmed clearly for posterity that all the main parties, giddy at the notion of our being the trailblazers of right-thinking wokery, are endorsing this regressive and dangerous ideology. Let it all be recorded.

Thus far, the only Oireachtas Members to have raised any concerns or questions on this issue, so far as I am aware, are those of a Catholic conservative bent, strongly associated with previous opposition to divorce, abortion and same-sex marriage. Personally, I don't give a fuck and will align with anybody willing to take a stand. The politics of purity are partly what got us into this mess. (It was an interesting experience to find myself nodding along in absolute agreement with a recent article by Breda O'Brien on the horrific harms of modern porn!)

However, any opposition to the extremist trans agenda will, of course, be dismissed as right-wing religious bigotry. The good thing is that ordinary people are becoming aware of the issues. You can see it in the way the debate has developed over the past year or so on boards.ie, for example. As Datun always says, sunlight is our best tool.

3timeslucky Mon 09-Dec-19 15:15:23

You cannot hammer home too hard the consideration of one group to the exclusion of another. I think the range of situations where this issue is relevant needs to be spelled out because the TDs etc have never actually thought through the implications. Off the top of my head prisons and refuges; women only shortlists and awards; sport; recording of stats (crime stats yes but also all stats used for policy and service development); recording of medical information - the sex of the individual has a direct influence on how you approach for example a complaint of pain in the abdomen area. Biology matters. And while it is sometimes trivialised I think it is important that people actually think of the implications of men presenting as women (or boys presenting as girls) being able to enter women's toilets and changing rooms.

At the core of all this lies the question as to whether our elected representatives actually believe it is possible to change sex, whether biology and science can be re-written based on "feelings". I don't believe they do. I'd also suggest that they know that if they asked the electorate they'd get their asses handed to them on a plate.

Distinguishing between sex and gender is also key to meaningful communication. I don't know if m/any of our elected representatives could explain the difference, nor how they plan to protect on the basis of sex when the terms are being used interchangeably.

Apologies that that's all a bit scattered and not at all succinct.

On point 2 when you mention other examples would you include things like UCD toilet notices (and quite possibly other unis/colleges etc) directing people to use the one that best reflects their identity and how that completely ignores the sentiments or safety of those who want to use a female-exclusive toilet and ignores the religious considerations of Muslim women (or other religions for whom this would be an issue). I know it has been said a million times before, but toilets - at least female toilets - are more than a place to pee and have acted as sanctuary and more since they were established.

DuchessDumbarton Mon 09-Dec-19 15:24:57

Oooh, scared to be identified, but yeah, count me in. I have to stop being cross about this and do something.

SoftDay I read that BOB porn article and, just like you, found myself nodding along in agreement with the points she made. ( I retain the right to vehemently disagree with her on others).

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo Mon 09-Dec-19 17:01:16

This is something that I think needs to be addressed, they have simplified the gra process for 16 and 17 year olds, amnesty made a statement in which they said:

* we remain concerned that gender recognition may not be accessible to 16 and 17-year-olds who cannot obtain the consent of both their parents... Clearer provision should be made in law to respect the right of children to express themselves and take into account their own views regarding what is in their best interests*

Do polititions agree with this?

MoleSmokes Sat 14-Dec-19 12:32:04

I am not in Ireland but I think it would be helpful to refer to the Denton's Guidance, as per article in the Law Gazette:

"Campaigners for gender recognition law 'should avoid media'"

www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/campaigners-for-gender-recognition-law-should-avoid-media/5102234.article

"Only adults? Good Practices for Legal Gender Recognition for Youth" praises trans activists in Ireland for their success in getting legislation in place "under the RADAR". This means politicians were complicit:

www.iglyo.com/only-adults/

There is more detail about Ireland than highlighted in the screenshots attached.

XXSex Sat 14-Dec-19 17:52:34

I’m in!

@Oncewasblueandyellowtwo
I did an FOI on risk assessments. They said they didn’t have one!

However worth asking again

I’d also add questions around Equakity Impact Assessments EqIA

The policy on mixed sex toilets in schools and how that impacts young girls menstruating. And indeed goes against their own technical guidance. And the BeLonGTo (I think) recommendations on provision of mixed sex but also single sex toilets for children who are uncomfortable with mixed (and this can’t be the staff toilet).

www.education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/Being-LGBT-in-School.pdf

www.education.ie/en/School-Design/Technical-Guidance-Documents/Current-Technical-Guidance/TGD–021-3-Guidelines-and-Standards-for-Sanitary-Facilities-in-Post-Primary-Schools-1st-Edition-April-2014-.pdf

Mixed sex toilets in schools and whether they have thought about I.e. done a EqIA on religious groups

XXSex Sat 14-Dec-19 19:41:55

I’ve seen a really good response already via FOI. If you want me to share it with you pm me

MotherForkinShirtBalls Sat 14-Dec-19 20:06:33

I haven't had time.to do anything about this, but I'd like to join the campaign. The Christmas break should give me time for some letter writing

ForeverFaithless Sat 14-Dec-19 23:13:21

How did I miss this last week?
Count me in too.

belleprof Sun 15-Dec-19 08:09:17

Hello I've been a lurker here for a couple of yrs. I would like to help with this plan.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo Sun 15-Dec-19 23:16:49

What we push on our students is acceptance
gcn.ie/new-limerick-secondary-school-gender-neutral-toilets/

It's happening here as we probably all know by now. That word, acceptance, and to push it... I wonder.
So the toilets, can anyone explain what they could be like I can't understand it from the article. Will there be no urinals? Wash basins that can be seen from the corridor?

the sinks will be set up so they are “back-to-back and there’s a screen visible from the corridor.

sounds nice, excatly what I would of wanted as a teenager.

Twistables Sun 15-Dec-19 23:20:44

Yes I'm interested in this

XXSex Mon 16-Dec-19 23:14:18

Tge plans that they have submitted to Limerick don’t match the description in the papers. I’m trying to do a little more digging.

eplan.limerick.ie/iDocsWebDPSS/ViewFiles.aspx?docid=1221014&format=jpeg

Mermoose Mon 13-Jan-20 16:33:28

Hi, sorry to everyone who replied - as I said in my initial post, I was really, really busy over Christmas and since then I just didn't have the energy to tackle this properly. But I've started a document with ideas from other posters (cheers!) and will be working on it over the week. If anyone has any suggestions, pop them in.

Mermoose Tue 14-Jan-20 17:39:24

These are the main headings I've got:

1 The loss of single-sex spaces, particularly for women.
1.1 Prisons
1.2 Refuges
1.3 Changing Rooms & Bathrooms

2 A Culture of Silencing Dissent or Questions in Medicine
2.1 Experts in GIDs with concerns
2.2 Trans People with concerns about longterm effects & lack of alternatives
2.3 Detransitioners

3 Reification of Sexist Stereotypes
3.1 Lack of academic freedom to explore concept of gender

4 Loss of Women’s Sports, Shortlists, Awards & Political Representation

5 Problems re Accurate Statistics

6 Accurate Information about Medicine where Sex is Relevant

7 Freedom of Conscience

I'll post each section separately so people can give input if they want.

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