Tanni Grey Thompson on R4 now talking about sport...

[TheCuriousMonkey]

8.22 on Today programme...

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_fourfm

Sorry, i tried to link to it but it hasn't worked.

Yes I heard that. I think she was very careful in the language she used. Understandably. But I don’t know if people who aren’t following this story would have really understood.

Here we are everythingthelighttouches.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00035gp

There is sometimes a gap between the programme coming off air and being downloadable, tho’ it might be easier in the BBC sounds app. She was on at about 8.20.

She didn’t really say anything

She was careful paintbysticker but she was clear that the current situation is not satisfactory. She was also firm about self ID not being acceptable.

Yes, very cautious interview. Tanni basically said it needs to be fair for everyone. IOC needs to urgently review and clarify rules as do other governing bodies. Women should be able to discuss women's sports openly. Now is the time to do this.

Thanks nettie

It’s a start though. Dame Tanni’s on our side, that’s the important thing. The more women athletes speaking up for us, the sooner we’ll reach critical mass.

I don’t blame her for being very careful - it’s ‘all about fairness’ she kept saying. It all sounded as if it was hypothetical.

What about males competing in us state competitions and blitzing the girls? Picking up sport scholarships as they go?

It may not be proveable that males are calling self ID purely to compete but who the hell can tell what is in their head when there is a male in a female line up? It IS happening now.

I don't blame her for being careful either. Thanks for speaking up, Tanni Grey Thompson

Am I imagining it but didn’t a team at the special olympics get sent home because they were faking their learning disabilities?

No one would fake to cheat would they?

Well remembered - yes it did happen! www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2459172/Spanish-basketball-team-pretended-disabled-win-Paralympic-gold-guilty-fraud.html

I actually think a careful, moderate voice is useful for people to hear. Her interest is in wellbeing in sport.

She came across as someone who does not have an axe to grind, who is not on either "side" of the debate.

Most listeners aren't on either "side" either, and Tanni is hugely respected so to hear her calm and moderate voice saying this must be looked at from a wellbeing point of view is really valuable.

The fact is that just asking for a debate will count as transphobic in some quarters. But to most she will have sounded utterly reasonable.

She did get some great points in- the self IDing students in the US, the IOC rules need to be reviewed and we should be allowed to talk about the whole thing.

Pretty good I’d say, Thanks Dame Tani.

DTGT said she looked for evidence about transthletes but couldn't find any and did not know why the IOC changed the rules in the way they have.

She also made a good point about sport not being fair.

White women. Black women. Disabled women.

McKinnon’s list of ‘types of women’ who are excluded will be getting shorter.

Parlympics are increasingly becoming a snakepit of accusations and counter-accusations about competitors faking or exaggerating their conditions.

Those who say the Paralympics should be merged with the Olympics do not seem to realise the logistics. There are at least twelve Paralympic 100 Metre finals.

She was cautious but she managed to make some good points. She mentioned the self id athletes competing at state level in the US. She said women should be allowed to discuss fairness in women's sport. She also mentioned the increase in numbers of transgender people since 2003, and the likely effect on sport if those numbers continue to increase.

Most listeners aren't on either "side" either

Nonsense. Polling says only 13% support male inclusion in sport. Most listeners know perfectly well what "side" they're on. Fence sitting is more likely to make them doubt that side.

Prevaricating and fence sitting is not helpful for women in sport. And it has a knock-on effect because the cavilling implicitly accepts TWAW but perhaps elite sport might need a teensy weensy exception or two. So all the other women affected by genderism are thrown under the bus yet again.

If the most prominent women in society - Tanni is a peer in the HoL and a national treasure, FFS - with the biggest platforms can't provide a full-throated defence of women, we are not winning.

Most people have yet to hear of this stuff. As someone said, most reasonable folk unfamiliar with the discourse would assume that a transwoman was a female who wished to become a 'man,' and not the other way round.

I’ve been wondering if the Paralympics might be a good way to integrate trans athletes into elite international sports.

Paralympics already create multiple sub categories for competition based on factors other than (though usually in addition to) sex. Given the nature of some of the conditions the athletes have, there will be varying types and levels of medications and surgical histories to take into account. As Millytant says above, this leads to controversy, but the system is at least thinking about acceptable modifications to support athletes’ conditions impact fairness. Trans seems to map into that system nicely.

I do think there is still a huge gap in knowledge in the listeners that transgender competitors have surgery. Even some who understand self ID see it as the stage before surgery. Whilst they cannot see why a man would have that surgery just to win they are not listening to the details that they do not need surgery.

Not fair to criticise her for not doing enough. Navratilova, Davies and Holmes are all strong well respected women but i imagine the attention and attacks, demands for sponsors to drop them etc - has caused them a lot of upset and anxiety.

I’ve been wondering if the Paralympics might be a good way to integrate trans athletes into elite international sports.

Personally, I'm centred on preserving the integrity of women's sport and all the benefits that come with it at grassroots level, particularly for girls. Unsure why it would be a priority for women to work out what would be best for trans athletes. Surely they can do that for themselves (providing women's sport is not the target) and do not need women to perform that labour for them?

But here's a suggestion: elite sport categories change from women's and men's to women's and open? There. Done.