Tanni Grey Thompson on R4 now talking about sport...

[TheCuriousMonkey]

8.22 on Today programme...

A Paralympic category or categories would be the best option IMO.

Paralympic sport is for 'athletes with impairment,' and if being trapped in the wrong body isn't that then what is?

Not all paralympians are disabled. Ellie Simmonds is just short.

And some paralympians such as Sarah Storey and Natalie Du Toit also compete against able-bodied competitors at the highest level.

Yesterday on the Today programme 2 male experts completely took apart RMcK's scientific claims. They were at pains to point out that the research quoted related to recreational sport not elite sport, and that at elite level having male physiology made a significant difference.

They also pointed out that testosterone levels in men ranged from 10-30 whilst for women it was 0.5-3. Their contention was that even reducing testosterone level requirements from the current level of 10 down to 5 still meant transwomen would have significantly higher levels that the women they were competing with.

I thought she did well. Very careful use of language.
Nothing for trans activists to pick on her for.
Lots of emphasis on fairness, and that they need to look ahead to see how rules could be abused by countries before making changes.

To someone who understands that the current IOC rules permit many male bodied people to compete as women, she was clearly saying she did not understand the basis for this and it needs to be looked into.

But to someone who does not know anything about this issue, I don’t think it would have been clear what the current rules allow.

Paralympic sport is for 'athletes with impairment,' and if being trapped in the wrong body isn't that then what is?

I often wonder how disabled people view the claims of being 'born in the wrong body'. Because if anyone could really claim such a thing, surely it's someone whas was born with a disability.

Lordprof You are not imagining a team faking it.It was the Spanish basketball team at the Sydney Olympics. I thought this was relevant too when TRAs say ‘why would people do it?’ The team pretended to have a learning disability which, when you think about the negative treatment people with a learning disability generally get, is astonishing. Same applies to being trans in prison. The TRAs say no-one would do this; the prison staff say yes they do.

Langcleg I agree with you in an ideal world, but trans advocates are not going to start suggesting alternatives to tw competing against women any time soon. If the general public could know what the rules are and actually mean (which Sharron d is trying to do by being more forthright), and people hear alternatives which sound reasonable, and yet the spokes people for trans rights still say that's not good enough, pennies will start to drop.

Old crone I think Michele more is from a disability rights background and that jarred with her.

Langcleg I agree with you in an ideal world, but trans advocates are not going to start suggesting alternatives to tw competing against women any time soon.

I'm not that bothered about what they suggest. I'm interested in supporting sport for women and girls.

It's a difficult line to tread for RMcK. Ultimately if they get enough buy-in to the "there's no advantage in having male physiology" position then there would be no reason for having separate competitions for men and women. I haven't heard RMcK being asked or answering why all competitions shouldn't be open to both men and women. Neither have I heard their reasoning on what explains the difference between the times/heights/lengths achieved by men and women in various sports.

I often wonder how disabled people view the claims of being 'born in the wrong body'. Because if anyone could really claim such a thing, surely it's someone whas was born with a disability.

It annoys me every time, especially when they pull the whole, "you can't know what it's like" line.

Like fuck I don't, my body feels like a cage I'm trapped in.

Radio 2 lunchtime news have just reported on the interview and referred to Martina speaking out to give background.

It's another tiny step forward.

They included Dame Tanni's quote that women must be allowed to discuss women's sport. It will resonate with those who don't know the TRA arguments.

Baroness

trans advocates are not going to start suggesting alternatives to tw competing against women any time soon.

If they're told categorically that transwomen can't compete in women's events, then that might focus their minds on coming up with a solution for themselves.

Tanni actively promotes Coca-Cola and regularly appears at sponsored events by the company. Listen, you can allow your children to drink that stuff, but don't tell me it somehow contributes to good health and wellbeing. In my view Tanni is a complete hypocrite and I personally don't value her views on anything.

It may not be proveable that males are calling self ID purely to compete but who the hell can tell what is in their head when there is a male in a female line up? It IS happening now.

See, I don't care what their motives are - the simple fact is that allowing boys and men to compete with girls is unfair and wrong.

What's more, it's even more wrong at non-elite level, where there's no testing and anyone can self-id into women's sports. Those boys in Connecticut have done nothing to reduce their advantage at all.

It may not be proveable that males are calling self ID purely to compete but who the hell can tell what is in their head when there is a male in a female line up?

And why should it matter? There is no difference between the body of a man who genuinely feels he should have been a woman and the body of a man who is pretending to feel like a woman so that he can beat the women in sports.

The TRAs say no-one would do this; the prison staff say yes they do.

Is anyone having difficulty deciding who to believe on this one?

Hand up - clumsy - I was batting back the whole ‘noone would lie to get the advantage’ thing. I’m not sure where I stand in events like shooting or archery - maybe they should be mixed sex anyway.

yes, radio 4 lunchtime news quoted her about the need for discussion and fairness.
it was very...measured but good on her.

Shooting could be mixed sex, and used to be at the Olympics. It's a heavily male-dominated area though, so having mixed-sex events means that women rarely win anything, simply because there are fewer participants.

Archery is a different matter. Strength and height play an enormous part here.

I used to compete (not at any great level) against the boys in archery and javelin. I guess I was good at projecting sharp things.

I was just going by what I'd read here, Fekko.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3510123-Martina-speaks-out?msgid=85006807

Female winners come in with top scores around average male scores. A transwoman could wander in with a 60lb bow barely having shot before and wipe out the female field.

"I haven't heard RMcK being asked or answering why all competitions shouldn't be open to both men and women."

She has definitely been asked, but has never answered.

Having sporting categories of women and open is a sensible way to go. If there are sports where women truly can compete equally, they'll start participating in the open event and at the point where they start taking an equal share of the medals/prizes, the women's only events for that particular sport might become redundant.

In today's Times, there's a piece about a female distance cyclist who wants to compete against the men - over longer distances than the women's events - but isn't allowed to.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nicole-hanselmann-let-me-race-against-men-says-top-female-cyclist-b83r8d7nf?shareToken=6c8d6eb72a74823740e7ea001d39689c

The elite athletes distinction is already there. The London Marathon has seperate starts for elite men, elite women, and everyone else.