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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rachel McKinnon on Radio Five Live

43 replies

treaclesoda · 18/12/2018 07:53

Five Live are broadcasting a 'poor me' interview with Rachel McKinnon.

RMcK says that people seem to view women's sport as something that needs protected...as if that's a bad thing.

Now interviewing a trans racing driver, which is hardly the same... Hmm

OP posts:
Mumfun · 18/12/2018 12:46

in the BBC article Rachael McKinnon says they want to defend their Masters championship to be held in England. Should be interesting!

DoctorW · 18/12/2018 13:04

This is utterly disgraceful bias yet again by the BBC. The BBC is getting in the way of legitimate debate. I have send a dossier of examples, including this one, to Samira Ahmed of BBC Newswatch asking her to look into this. Please write into the program if you think the BBC is breach its public duty for fairness on trans issues.

[email protected]
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qjrk2

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 13:05

Alistair Magowen 'BBC Sport journalist, Uefa B Licenced coach'

I wonder if in response to Rachel McKinnon claims, Alistair Magowen would ever say, "that might be described as cheating too. We report both sides just as we have done in this case"

The ongoing presentation of this being about 'two sides' is innacurate and only serves those who support trans-ideology.

My 70 yr old Dad is not a feminist, let alone a radical one.
He has played and coached sports most of his life.
He & many others, I'm sure regard McKinnon's position as unfair, illogical and to quote him, "bloody ridiculous"

Rachel McKinnon on Radio Five Live
andyoldlabour · 18/12/2018 13:16

@R0wantrees,

"The stages are usually awareness, curiosity, understanding & then possibly fighting."

On October 15th, when I first read about McKinnon, I think I managed that list of stages in about 1 hour Grin

OlennasWimple · 18/12/2018 13:44

By this logic you might as well have competitions for 'women and older or less fit men'

Well, in effect my golf club does, as we only have two sets of tees - one for men, and one for senior men (over 65), junior men (under 16) and women. It's rare that a woman outdrives a junior or a senior - it's usually only when the men are under 10 or over 75 that there's more parity.

I have a (non-tested) theory that the hormones that transwomen take do indeed make them weaker - but they fail to comprehend that they are still stronger than the average woman (because of all the other physiological advantages that the male physique confers)

treaclesoda · 18/12/2018 14:24

Treaclesoda was Mckinnon on around 7.50 on Five Live?

Yes, I think it was still on air as I typed the opening post, so that timing would be about right.

OP posts:
Materialist · 18/12/2018 20:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Rubidium · 18/12/2018 20:54

Some thoughts on www.bbc.co.uk/sport/46453958

"The practice of sport is a human right."

But competing at the highest level is not.

"McKinnon, who transitioned in her late-20s, says that results in "pretty radical physiological changes", with muscle mass, strength and speed all reduced. It also, claims McKinnon, "compounds ageing".

Sport at the highest level (like world championships) involves human beings performing extraordinary feats with a combination of physique, aptitude and skill that most of us don’t possess. Doping is unfair as it allows competitors to unnaturally exceed their innate physiology. So what’s the point of talking drugs that undermine your natural strength? Spectators don’t want to watch a race where e.g. Dina Asher Smith is handicapped in some way, spectators want to watch her perform at the peak of her ability.

"We permit very tall women to compete against short women in sports that select for tallness like basketball, volleyball or rowing, and we consider that fair. So we permit very large competitive advantages through natural characteristics.”

No, if you’re short you’re never going to compete at elite level in basketball, rowing etc. Tall people are always going to be better than you. I believe Kath Grainger took up rowing when someone approached her at Edinburgh Uni because she is tall and asked her to have a go. No-one’s stopping you doing these sports recreationally if you’re smaller, but there will come a point when you won’t be able to progress due to your physique.

"It also depends on the sport.

Regarding Charlie Martin, in motor sport there’s also the element that it’s the car manufacturers who are competing with each other as much as the drivers themselves. So using motor sport as a justification is a little odd.

For sports like cycling, where if you're going uphill you want to be as light as possible but as powerful as possible, someone with a larger skeleton is going to be carrying more weight, which is not helping them."

There’s always an element of horses for courses in cycling. Mark Cavendish will never win the Tour de France as he can’t do the long climbs as well as the other riders, but as a sprinter he is among the best in the world. That’s down to his natural physiology. But all the TdF competitors start with the bottom line that they are adult males.
If you compare cyclists like Emma Pooley (5’2”, slight build, high power to weight ratio so ideal for climbing but less effective on the level) and Kirsten Wild (5’9”, strong build, powerful over the flat but her heavier build less suited to climbing), they were never going to win the same races even though they’re both adult females.

donquixotedelamancha · 18/12/2018 21:07

Rachel McKinnon also said that she had received 100,000 hostile tweets in relation to her victory

Poor Lance Armstrong got a lot of negative attention as well. Cycling fans seem like a bunch of meanies.

Annandale · 18/12/2018 22:23

In power sports, sex matters. I've rowed in mixed crews and women's crews. Mixed crews in races have rules about how many men and how many women, because it makes a difference. DUH. It is incredible that this is even having to be discussed.

The IOC: 'Corruption? What corruption? Look how woke we are! We have trans people competing! Not the Russians who have been slung in jail for being gay, obvs, but we have some trans people breaking lots of records in an exciting manner! Prime time meat for you, NBC! How much do you want to pay per advertising slot around exciting new world record, CocaCola? What do you mean, sponsors? Payment for awarding the Olympics? [cough] Look how woke we are!'

Coyoacan · 19/12/2018 05:23

I am somewhat gobsmacked that Alistair Magowan, being a sports commentator for one of the world's most important media, acts like he hasn't the first clue about the physical differences between men and women. Mind you, the IOC doesn't know either. What a strange world we live in.

I have a five-year-old granddaughter who loves physical challenges, but I think I will steer her clear of sports.

Annandale · 19/12/2018 07:30

Please don't do that coyoacan. Your granddaughter should still be encouraged to enjoy sport. I would be a bit less keen on girls playing rugby in the current climate but then I am scared of ds playing rugby so I don't perhaps have a rational view of it. I very much want UK junior rugby to be played on a weight/height basis not an age basis, but God help us all if sex isn't considered relevant either at least from early puberty.

LiteralDemocrat · 19/12/2018 07:48

I saw the online article ( www.bbc.co.uk/sport/46453958 )and have complained via the BBC complaints website (bbc.co.uk/complaints). Below is my complaint if it helps people do similar - feel free to use or cut and paste or edit:

This article (written by a man) about the impacts on women's sport, was hugely biased.

Examples of this include:

  • The headline needlessly placing the word 'threat' in quotes to minimise the seriousness of the issue
  • 61 lines of quotes from transwomen athletes, with not a single direct quote of more than one word from women or from anyone with a view that questions the issues around transwomen in sport
  • Uncorroborated claims from transwomen such as Rachel McKinnon about receiving 'hate messages' outweighing positive ones by 3000 to 1. Have you seen evidence of these hate messages? Have you seen evidence of the numbers? How do you define hate messages?
  • Deliberate or negligent omission of relevant evidence - for example

a) you interview Hannah Mouncey and give several paragraphs to Hannah Mouncey's views on the issue. You don't mention the broken bones which Hannah Mouncey's female competitors have already suffered.

b) you report your opinion that in some combat sports (such as boxing and judo) there are weight categories. You do not report, for example, that transgender MMA fighter Fallon Fox caused a female opponent to receive a concussion, an orbital bone fracture, and seven staples within 2 minutes 17 seconds of their 'contest'.

c) You give great space to the arguments of Rachel McKinnon without even questioning how a psychology professor who had only recently taken up the sport became a world champion, or reporting that the reigning champion withdrew from the event beforehand because she knew that there was a disadvantage.

This was a highly biased, misleading propaganda piece, by a man, which gave no opportunity or examination of the issues around the impact of transwomen on women's sport.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 19/12/2018 07:56

Martina Navratilova
@Martina
Clearly that can’t be right. You can’t just proclaim yourself a female and be able to compete against women. There must be some standards, and having a penis and competing as a woman would not fit that standard…

mobile.twitter.com/Martina/status/1075193284660785153

Thegirlinthefireplace · 19/12/2018 08:08

Was just coming to post that painintheear. Finally s high profile sport swam says something!

Thegirlinthefireplace · 19/12/2018 08:09

Sportswoman

NotBadConsidering · 19/12/2018 08:24

I wonder how many of the 100,000 hostile tweets were just people saying “I don’t think this is fair”.

Someone should tell Martina Navratilova that not only is she expected to be willing compete with someone with a penis, she is also expected to be willing to have sex with someone with a penis.

andyoldlabour · 19/12/2018 09:04

I think this guy sums it all up perfectly, and he has been attacked for stating the obvious.
@4.37 in the video

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=911&v=KQpQmNhya14

When the IOC, EUFA, FA, UCI, all of the sports governing bodies, make decisions regarding transgender issues, guess who advises them?
Transgender people - more specifically transwomenHmm
What could possibly go wrong?

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