Green Party Dissent?

[BlooperReel]

A few posters have mentioned the tide may be turning in terms of the old 'trans women are women' mantra. It appears Richard Clark of the Green party has openly dissented, and shared a post from a group called 'This Never Happens' on facebook, as well as an LBC post where Jordan Peterson was rejecting being enforced to use biologically incorrect pronouns.

Anyone else seen this?

I don't have a link but his post stated:

*Green Party policy states, quite tautologically in my view, that “A trans man is a man, and a trans woman is a woman”. For me, though, this policy is not only badly worded.

It is also an ideological attack in freedom of thought, a totalitarian attitude of thinking that requires an unrealistic proselytising of the masses.

It is very dangerous stuff, so I oppose that it internally and externally whilst trying to support those who propagate it to a more accepting attitude to others’ ways of thinking and being.

I voted against it, disagree with it and will fight against its righteous vitriol.*

I will caveat this to say I have never heard of Richard Clark before, but am heartened that a Green party spokes person has 'outed' himself so to speak to challenge this.

BTW I apologise if this has already been discussed, I hadn't seen anything on it.

Admirable, but the fact that Caroline Lucas, to name but one, has a degree in Gender Studies rather than anything ecological illustrates the uphill struggle he faces.

Freespeecher I am hoping he inspires similar thinking colleagues into speaking out more on this. I wonder if he will face any internal disciplinary action, similar to what we have seen with labour dissenters.

Relevent threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3198432-Update-on-interactions-with-the-Green-Party-on-self-id

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3162538-Someone-from-Green-Party-speaking-up-online-about-freedom-of-speech-for-rad-fems

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3152500-Any-gender-critical-Green-Party-members-on-here

Concerns:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3179255-Green-Party-silences-again

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3209207-Green-Party-blocking-30-000-women-on-twitter

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3212198-Green-Party-equalities-spokesperson-has-Twitter-blocklist-of-50-000

Olivia Palmer's suspension from Green Party following GenderQuake debate:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244781-dr-adrian-harrop-who-the-funk-does-he-think-he-is#prettyPhoto

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3243464-Channel-4s-Genderquake-Debate-is-heavily-criticised-boycotted-by-prominent-transgender-activists-allies

BlooperReel

In allal seriousness there's a chance of a reboot here, especially with the news that Caroline Lucas won't be running as leader again once her term ends.

They had some joy running to the left of Labour but that won't cut it when they're up against a Corbyn-led outfit.

Maybe gender criticality would be one way of setting themselves apart from otherson the left and centre (though, sadly, I suspect it won't).

@R0wantrees thank you for the links, I will have a read through tonight

@Freespeecher I will be paying close attention to any new leader, I am politically homeless at present given Labour's nosedive into lunacy.

I will definitely send Clarke a message of support. It's tragic how we now see his actions as brave. But they are.

RE Green Party position:
Aimee Challoner comment article:
'It’s hard tackling transphobia when the BBC propagate it'
(concludes)
"The BBC may see it appropriate to give a platform to those who are abusive online, but I don’t and clearly, neither does Twitter. The type of abuse that goes on online is horrendous and it affects so many people on a daily basis. I’ve previously written about the issue calling for urgent action; I’m pleased to see that Twitter is doing taking it. I am willing to continue have discussions with the BBC and others, on how we can achieve factual news articles that are fair and balanced, and don’t propagate harm against LGBTIQA+ people. Finally, let me make it clear, I am not a man. I have never been, and I never will be. I am a woman. I am open about my trans history, but first and foremost I am a woman. In the Green Party, we are clear on our policy; Trans Women are Women. Trans Men are Men. Non-Binary Identities are Real and Valid."

inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/bbc-transgender/

BBC article referred to by Aimee discussed:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3262965-Good-article-today-BBC-on-the-twitter-ban-on-womens-free-speech-on-trans-issues?pg=1

BlooperReel Happy to help!

I understand that Aimee Challoner has announced she is running for deputy leader of the Green Party.

Olivia Palmer's comment:
perspicats.wordpress.com/2017/10/18/gender-a-feminist-environmentalist-critique/

When you belong to a political party that dismisses the majority of the human race as non-men you have a sum total of zero credibility.

Olivia's statement about her suspension from Green Party:
perspicats.wordpress.com/2018/05/11/the-genderquake-debate-fiasco-and-the-mccarthyism-that-followed/

@BlooperReel There is a reponse from Caroline Lucus posted yesterday on thread & discussed:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3198432-Update-on-interactions-with-the-Green-Party-on-self-id?pg=4&messages=25

also, Guardian article today by Alfie Packham :
'Aimee Challenor: ‘Yes, I’m trans, but I’m a Green politician and proud of it
The Green party equality spokeswoman on Theresa May, fighting transphobia and why, aged 20, she’s aiming high'

(extract)
"Far from not suiting politics, she is now standing to be deputy leader of the Green party. Voting takes place in August, when members will also select a new leader, after Caroline Lucas, the party’s first and only MP, announced last week that she was stepping down as the party’s co-leader. If elected, Challenor will be the first transgender person to hold the deputy role – and easily the youngest, at the age of 20. Is her age not a barrier? Challenor understands that people might see her as too young. “But just look,” she says, “at the amazing work that is being done by young people: by the SNP’s Mhairi Black in parliament; by young volunteers; by students coming together and campaigning.”

Challenor became involved in politics towards the end of the 2010-2015 coalition government. “That threw out the Conservatives and the Lib Dems for me because of tuition fees, austerity and a lack of action on climate change. I looked at other manifestos and the Greens’ stood out. I agreed with all of it.” The party was also “miles ahead of the competition” on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender issues at the time, she says." (continues)

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jun/06/aimee-challenor-theresa-may-lgbt-inequality-transgender-green-party

Finally, let me make it clear, I am not a man. I have never been, and I never will be. I am a woman. I am open about my trans history, but first and foremost I am a woman.

This is a complete nonsense statement. If you sincerely believe you've never been a man then you can't claim trans too. The two beliefs negate each other, there has to be something to trans from and to.

YY Ova, totally agree!
Word salad nonsense.

I will say though, how can Challenor claim to 'be a woman', when the GP only have 1) men and 2) non-men.

Puzzling!

I don't know whether Richard Clark is saying he does or does not believe that 'trans women are women'. He describes it as a 'tautology' - i.e. something that goes without saying. Then he says he opposes it?

Maybe he meant oxymoron, or maybe he is using trans women to mean women who transition, or maybe I can't work out what the hell he means.

@KittiesInsane I took it to mean he feels the Greens are framing it as a tautology, when it isn't.

Could be that, too - I didn't think of that option. Clear as mud, anyway.

"In rhetoric, a tautology (from Greek ταὐτός, "the same" and λόγος, "word/idea") is an argument which repeats an assertion using different phrasing. The proposition, as stated, is thus logically irrefutable, while obscuring the lack of evidence or valid reasoning supporting the stated conclusion."

Seahorses are horses.

I wonder if this is the same Richard Clark of the Green Party I know. If it is he has liked a couple of my gender critical facebook posts in the past.