crying at bedtime, WWYD?

[Tumtitum]

DD is now 19 weeks. I've posted before about her sleep, which all went pear shaped around 13 weeks. Difficult to get to sleep for naps and at night, short naps. Things had been improving but seem to have taken a turn for the worse again.
Yesterday it took me an hour for each nap and bedtime. At one nap I was really close to losing my cool so had to put her down in her cot and time myself out in the next room. For ten minutes she grumbled and shouted (if she had done a full on upset cry I would have gone back in) and then she fell asleep. Since then I have noticed that she seems to cry more when I am trying to rock and shush her than when she is in her cot! So now I am trying five mins rocking, five mins in cot (unless she properly fries then I pick her up straight away) etc etc. This evening she is going full out screaming when I pick her up, and crying still in cot. (She has had jabs today so it might be worse than usual, but is not the same sort of crying as the last set of injections so I don't think it's wholly that.) my question is, if picking her up makes her cry even louder, then should I put her in the cot where she will cry but maybe less,am and just try to soothe her by talking to her or patting her?(which doesn't really work but I don't want her crying alone!)
I've just managed to feed her to sleep, but this is rare, not a habit I want to develop, and usually only gets her to sleep for 20 mins then we have to start all over again!!!
WWYD? Sorry for the long post, I find it hard to be concise!! ;)

[MyBreadIsEggy]

She's still so young! Short naps are perfectly normal.
As for the struggling to actually get her down to sleep, could she be teething?? My Dd went through a similar stage at that age, and I was at my wits end - I just didn't know what to do to make her sleep! I didn't think she could possibly be teething so young, but one day, I had exhausted all other options and gave her 2.5ml of calpol....and she slept
Could it be that??

[Tumtitum]

I think it might be teething we she is starting to chew on things more (including my nipples, ouch!) and isn't able to keep her dummy in anymore, I think because she is trying to chew it rather than suck it! However , due to her jabs I have given her 2 X 2.5 mls calpol today with bugger all effect! :( plus the minute I stop trying to put her to bed, put her on her playmat etc she is full of smiles! She is definitely crying in protest at me trying to get her to sleep :(
I think I'm beginning to make my peace with the short naps now, it's just the hour long fights before then that I struggle with the most! :(
I just don't know if I'm actually antagonising her more when if I just left her to it in her cot she might cry less overall and start to get a bit more sleep!! If my cuddles comforted her it would be a no brainer but they seem to do the opposite at the moment. :(

[BathshebaDarkstone]

It sounds like she prefers to be left, I'd leave her to self-settle.

[Tumtitum]

Even if she goes crazy and she's teeny tiny? :(

[peardroplets]

Please don't leave her to get as she's so tiny! I would just use whatever method gets her to sleep with the least crying and stress. Feeding to sleep is totally normal at that age and she is too young to learn habits. Seriously dont stress about naps at that age either. If you're trying more than an hour she probably doesn't need one! The best thing to do would be go out with the buggy or sling so she can drop off if she is tired and at least you can get on with your day. In my experience structured naps dont really start until around six months

[peardroplets]

Should have said don't leave her to cry.

[museumum]

I didn't "believe in" leaving babies to cry before I had my ds but honestly it was the kindest thing. Alone he'd cry for 5mins then sleep, with me in the room, whatever I did, he'd fight sleep for 45mins.
I never left him longer than 6min.

[FizzyFeet]

Definitely worth having a look at how long she is awake between naps. For a while I tried to put DD down too early (misinterpreted yawns) and she quite rightly protested for ages as she just wasn't tired! It happened quite suddenly so I was a bit taken aback!

[Tumtitum]

I do worry sometimes that she really isn't tired but most of the time she is yawning and rubbing at her face and eyes like crazy so it really seems like she is!!!! But she rarely gets grizzly tired, she's a very happy baby; she literally pretty much only cries when she knows it's bedtime!!!
Whether I try to put her to bed after 60/90/120 mins it still seems to have the same outcome! Although a week ago on holidays she was going down like a dream at virtually every nap and sleeping for 90 mins every morning!! no idea what I was doing differently... Maybe she just likes being on holiday!!
To be honest logically it does seem like she might cry less if I leave her to it, as she's crying an hour sometimes with me trying to soothe her. But I can't stand the thought of her thinking I've abandoned her and I know she is very tiny to cry

[Tumtitum]

Fizzy feet how long were you leaving between naps? Sometimes I just leave her to it in the day but honestly she can be hardly able to keep her eyes open in the buggy and still be fighting sleep and then the minute I stop pushing she wakes! She does sleep well in the sling but I've started to get a bad back so I've had to cut back on our sling naps!!!

[whatsleep]

The fact that she seems worse when you are rocking her could mean that she has infant reflux (when stomach acid comes into the throat) my dd had this as a baby, it was silent reflux which meant she never actually vomited with it but the acid came up far enough to cause her discomfort. Maybe worth a visit to the GP. We went on for weeks with a grouchy unsettled baby then once she started on infant gaviscon it cured it straight away. It is very common and babies do grow out of it. Hope this helps

[Tumtitum]

What sleep that's interesting I hadn't considered that. I rock her upright though ( more a kind of jiggle!) so would it still show up being jiggled upright? Plus it comes and goes, eg last week was fine and then this week the screaming returns!! Could silent reflux come and go like that? She's also fine lying flat etc etc... Thanks for the suggestion :)

[FizzyFeet]

Hmmm, it's tricky isn't it? At 19 weeks I think we were going 1hr 45 mins or 2 hrs between naps. Is it possible that by the time you get the yawns she is already overtired? If you can spot her glazing over, not keeping eye contact, losing interest in a favourite toy. Their tired signals seem to change a lot.

A couple more ideas (can you tell we've tried a lot??):
The jiggling might be overstimulating in a way it wasn't when she was younger - try swaddling, really loud white noise and endless robotic patting, not making any eye contact, blackout blinds.
OR go the other way and make her cot a fun sensory place to play until she drops off (Google the Cheshire Baby Whisperer for more on this).

[whatsleep]

Yes any kind of jiggling around can set it off, laying flat usually makes it worse as the stomach acid can then easily travel up to the throat. However there are different factors shush as how full the tummy is! You say she screams for prolonged periods, it only takes a little wet burp (so to speak) then her throat will feel sore for quite a while. Sorry can't be any more help but certainly sounds very similar to what we went through.

[Tumtitum]

It's not reflux I'm sure of it. She's screaming tonight but the minute I take her out of her dark room and into another room she'll stop screaming. She's overtired and she doesn't like me putting her to sleep. We have travelled today which im sure hasn't helped but given that she refused to nap this morning before we left I don't think that's the main culprit.
I've tried swaddling and I can't do it. We have white noise and black out blinds. Sometimes patting works, sometimes it seems to overstimulate her. Likewise jiggling, although normally really exaggerates jiggling helps her start to drop off, but she more often than not wakes up the minute the jiggling stops!!
I've been trying to get her to bed for over two hours now. I'm away without DH so no one to take over and I don't know what to do anymore :( even feeding her to sleep isn't working as I've done it twice and both times she's woken the second she stopped feeding :(

[FizzyFeet]

Gosh, that sounds awful. Hope she has gone to sleep now. If not, can you try the pushchair or the car? Do you have a dummy? If she wakes up once she stops feeding it might be that she wants something to suck to calm down.

Keep your chin up. This too will pass. (I bloody hope it does anyway - after a good couple of nights my DD is now wide awake waaaay beyond her bedtime!)

[Tumtitum]

She spits out the dummy at the moment even tho she clearly wants to suck :( I think we might be starting teething soon which won't be helping but again, she's literally right as rain during the day it's literally that so hates me putting her to bed!!! Thanks for the support, much needed and appreciated :)
She's just woken for her 11pm feed (some things are predictable!!) so better get back to sleep before the 1am wake up!!

[Tumtitum]

It just seems to get worse, nothing bloody works :( took me 30 mins to get her down for a nap this morning, then we had another nap in the sling. I've been being super vigilant regarding sleep signals so 45 mins after her last nap she started rubbing and her eyes and was very fussy feeding so I started to try and put her down for a nap. That was almost an hour ago :( I've fed her, taken clothes off as its quite warm, let her grizzle, tried the dummy, tried something for her to chew on, tried being with her just with my hand on her, tried shushing and patting, tried just patting, just shushing, less jiggling, more jiggling. Nothing bloody works. I feel like I spend my whole bloody day trying to get her to sleep and making her cry. And now she'll be getting over tired so I know I'll have to do this all again at the next nap time or at bed time. Nothing seems to make a difference and it's making me bloody miserable, I feel like just letting her do her own thing (which would be to stay awake all day long) as doing all the right things doesn't seem to be lessening the sleep battles anyway

[FizzyFeet]

for you.

Do you have a health visitor you can talk to? They might have advice. And they (or a GP) could check her over to rule out any underlying physical causes. I guess it's possible the eye rubbing isn't tiredness (esp after only 45 minutes) but could be congested nose / itchy?

[Tumtitum]

Thanks for the wine and various treats! I have had wine and chocolate and cake today so she furiously resisted any naps this afternoon and eventually my mum sent me out with my dad to the pub (staying with them whilst DH is away). When I returned she had given her a bath, fed her half a bottle of expressed milk and she conked out!!!! So maybe either I was stressing her out getting so stressed myself or maybe I have a baby that just needs to be super tired to sleep?? I guess she'd been awake a little over 4 hours before she slept... Is she too young for the 2/3/4 hours between naps thing??

[FizzyFeet]

How are you getting on, tumtitum? Hope things have improved a bit!

[Tumtitum]

Currently sitting downstairs watching the monitor whilst DD grizzles upstairs! Totally up and down at the moment... A few days ago she had two 1.5hour naps (which haven't been repeated yet!) and yesterday she managed to put herself to sleep for the night! She resisted naps a bit today but I managed to get two hour naps from her so not too bad. Let's just see what time she ends up going to sleep tonight! I'm trying to allow her the chance to self settle but going up to cuddle her if she starts to get upset. I think I just need to try to keep up the routines we've started and most importantly not get stressed out if it doesn't go right every time!! Having said that I'm sure this won't be the last thread I start about her sleep!!! thanks for checking back in :)

[InFrance2014]

You asked WWYD...
I would chill out, big time. She's very very little still, and it's really easy to get stressed about bedtimes, naps, routines. I'm speaking as someone who did that first time round.
Take the easy route, feed to sleep (it's a blessing, use it), cuddle, let her sleep on your chest while you watch tv... whatever works. Don;t feel like you have to force naps in darkened rooms etc. If she's getting stressed around nap/bedtime it might be because she is anticipating things she doesn't like, e.g. too much stimulation (jiggling, white noise, bring picked up and put back down) or being left alone. Babies are programmed to want to be with people for their own safety, they become distressed when alone, this is what grizzling is. She;s not manipulating you or anything, she just wants to be with you!

If you are at home with her, then just go with it, let yourself off the hook, nobody is watching. Keep her with you, feed her, lie down with her, whatever seems to calm her. It's all so very short in the big scheme of things.

Re: reflux, if it was this she'd be screaming/during after each feed.

Lots of information here on biologically normal sleep: www.isisonline.org.uk/

[Tumtitum]

Thanks :) I think I do need to chill out a bit but aren't us first time mums meant to be nervous wrecks?! ;)
She won't sleep anywhere (except her sling and buggy - sometimes!) if it's light or there's noise or anything vaguely entertaining she won't sleep! I wish she would sleep on me whilst I watch tv, I would definitely give myself a break and do it!! I tried a couple of times last week and it failed as she woke up every time we left the nursery! I also would totally feed her to sleep if she'd let me but she'll only feed to sleep if she is absolutely knackered and in a dark room! She is starting to cry less now, even if she still resists sleep, so that's a positive! I