Could you explain the deletions for calling out racism please?

[paxillin]

Some, but not all perhaps harshly worded, but how else do you say racism is shit? I am talking about the deletions on the thread about the golliwog mugs.

[PomegranateTit]

I too would like an explanation. Racism should be challenged

[JamieFrasersArse]

I'd like to know why MNHQ lets racist threads flourish and leaves racist posters to spew their ignorance all over the site, while deleting those who call out the racism.

[paxillin]

The OP wasn't racist, but lots of racists turned up, they are there for all to see. The people challenging it got deleted. This is a bad look for mumsnet.

[C8H10N4O2]

The people challenging it got deleted. This is a bad look for mumsnet

The same happened in a disablist thread at the weekend.

Newname poster makes a vague goady post, second hand account from supposed DD.
They post one booster message an hour later then watch 450 posts of disability bashing without returning.

I reported several individual posts as well as the thread. I had one of my own posts deleted which was challenging the disability bashing.

I queried my deletion and was told it was a mistake, a series of posts had been deleted and mine was deleted in error. It still wasn't reinstated but a message was added to say it was deleted because it quoted another thread. Same words were quoted in many other posts left standing.

I've still not had a response to my report on the thread one way or the other.

That thread stands. Full of lovely comments stating disabled people routinely lie, cheat, fake their disabilities, bully people and act entitled. Assumptions about the fictional protaganist's behaviour based on nothing more than PPs internal assumptions about the disabled.

Its an ugly look for MN.

I'd like more time spent on modding the bordeline passive aggressive *isms on this site.

Perhaps divert the time wasted by instead of inviting male dominated platforms to submit mass attacks on the individuals on a women's forum and incidentally putting them at risk.

[paxillin]

It is depressing enough that there is so much racism and disablism on here. It is usually challenged. If the challenges get deleted MN looks worse than it is.

I know only things that are reported get deleted. Sadly it seems the racists are quick on the report button, the anti-racists prefer to let the racism stand and challenge it publicly.

[JenMumsnet]

Hi OP,
We have had a look through our deletions on that thread and there are some that were deleted as they were clearly racist, but also some because they were goady or personal attacks.
If you are still concerned that we have missed something then please do report it and we will take a look and remove if they break our TGs

[paxillin]

I am dismayed that expressing racist views in a friendly manner is preferable to anti-racist views which are viewed as personal attacks. I think saying "fuck off" to a racist is a good thing to do.

[JamieFrasersArse]

If you think telling a racist to fuck off is worse than actually being a racist then Mumsnet has a serious problem. You may also need to revise your Talk Guidelines if "making racist comments" isn't already on the list of things you won't allow.

[Hoppinggreen]

If the guidelines say you can’t say fuck off then you can’t say fuck off, even to racists
MNHQ can’t allow people to break the guidelines when dealing with even vile arseholes unfortunately, they have to universally apply

[C8H10N4O2]

I'm honestly appalled that its ok to use mealy mouthed words to propagate racism and disablism (the disablist thread was just as bad) but telling a bigot to "Fuck Off" is not acceptable.

That gives out an great message - that every *ism is fine on mumsnet so long as you couch it in Daily Mail speak.

Is that really what @MNHQ stands for these days?

[C8H10N4O2]

If the guidelines say you can’t say fuck off then you can’t say fuck off, even to racists

That isn't my issue. My issue is that "fuck off" is a deleting offence but mealy mouthed racism, disablism and other *isms are acceptable.

Seriously is that really a good situation to be in?

[paxillin]

Well, the guidelines don't say you can't say fuck off, @Hoppinggreen. They say no personal attacks, but also no racism. So they are being interpreted in favour of the racists.

[TheHeraldOfAndraste]

This is depressing as fuck and one of the reasons I don't post on here anymore. Way to make your BAME community feel welcome, HQ.

[MasterLeonard]

I've noticed the same threads flourishing over and over, featuring disingenuous questions about cultural appropriation and use of the word 'monkey' (usually complete with crazy fictitious black woman who takes our innocent heroine to task). They're nothing but excuses to race-bash, and it's bloody depressing that MNHQ evidently thinks they're all 'within the spirit' of the site.

[MasterLeonard]

Also, if you do an advanced search for the words 'fuck off' it returns hundreds of examples of the phrase being used (directly at other posters, as well as in other contexts). It's clearly not an automatic breach of TGs to tell someone to fuck off.

[QueenOfTheAndals]

And my god, can't HQ just delete golliwog threads on sight? There is really no need to leave them up even if it's to 'educate' posters. Quite frankly, if you get to adulthood and don't realise golliwogs are racist then there's no hope for you!

[paxillin]

This one wasn't a goady one. OP showed an example of golliwogs on sale now. But the "golliwogs are a toy not racist" posts are left standing. Clearly there is a need to educate. Not on MN though, unless you say "you are a racist" in very friendly terms.

[MillicentF]

I was deleted for saying that a poster who had said they weren’t racist was, in fact, either racist or stupid.....

[paxillin]

A perfectly reasonable conclusion, @MillicentF.

[immortalmarble]

The problem ultimately stems from the fact that far too many people believe racism is only overt and explicit. They often have a vested interest in doing so: if your definition of racism is very narrow, you can then be free to openly display your prejudices and ignorance.

The “golliwog” thread was a perfect example of that sort of thinking - by denying that such a toy is actually an open display of prejudice despite all the evidence to the contrary, it serves a double purpose: firstly, you can be racist by celebrating its very existence and secondly get to have a lovely swipe at anyone offended by it by offering frantic cackles of “PC gone mad” and how goodness me, black people are very easily offended, aren’t they?

People can say that. I am generally in favour of a view being aired, challenged and ultimately hopefully disposed of. The issue is that by allowing the racist posts to stand while deleting the ones which attack the racist posts, the overall message doesn’t come across so well.

[paxillin]

Very thoughtful post, @immortalmarble. MN looks that little bit more racist after the deletions.

[paxillin]

And a little bit more disablist after the thread @C8H10N4O2 was talking about earlier.

[immortalmarble]

I missed that one - which one was it?

[C8H10N4O2]

@immortalmarble

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3241589-To-think-DD-wasn-t-unreasonable-not-to-give-up-reserved-seat?

Even if we presume the OP was real and this happened there was nothing in the story to justify all the assumptions made about the disabled character. eg:

• its her own fault for not reserving a seat (I always book a seat, it frequently fails especially with connections/changing train times)
  
• she should have sought out the guard (assume she hadn't made any effort on her own part)
  
• she should have used $RANDOM_SERVICE which is almost never available anyway. I particularly laughed at the idea that every station has spare staff to pop people in carts
  
• lots of posts repeating the trope that people with walking sticks are usually/often faking it "because a guard told them".
  

I get this a lot when traveling, its always somehow my fault for having the temerity to be employed whilst having a disability. I've been told that people like me shouldn't travel at peak times because thats when workers travel /

Very similar to the racism threads here and other bigoted threads. Lots of posts which don't actually tell anyone to fuck off but which tell people like me to fuck off in other ways

These apparently are just fine on MN.

And I still have on response to my report on the thread.

[C8H10N4O2]

And I still have on response to my report on the thread.

Sorry should be "no response"