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Urgent please share! children sitting the 11+ exam Slough Consortium (Kendrick) on Saturday can cheat

(121 Posts)
Lindy123 Thu 11-Sep-14 12:31:39

This has been raised with Kendrick and Reading schools and so far the response has been "Raise a formal complaint" and "we can look at this next year"

Please share urgently!

The morning exam at Reading Boys will finish at around 11.00AM, the morning exam at Kendrick finishes at 11.30AM. The afternoon exam at Kendrick does not start until 13.00 hours with registration half an hour before at 12.30PM. This leaves a possible one and a half hours in which exam content could be distributed to friends and family and content becomes viral.
With this lack of safeguarding a boy could sit the morning exam and his twin sister could sit the afternoon exam and they would be able to have lunch together in between and share the content of the morning paper which is quite feasible as they would not be competing for the same school.

tiggytape Thu 11-Sep-14 12:43:18

This happens with quite a few 11+ exams around the country. Some grammar schools have 1500+ children wanting to sit the test. There's no way they can squeeze all those children in at once so there's a morning sitting and an afternoon sitting.

I suppose a child could come out and say "There was a question with four fractions" or "there was a poem about rivers" but it isn't likely to be very accurate information and any child hearing it will have an hour max to do anything with it before they have to set off for their own exam. If anything it is more likely to terrify them than be any help.

CatherineofMumbles Thu 11-Sep-14 12:44:39

Theoretically possible, but hardly likely in practice - how many boy girl twins going home for lunch? And even id they did share, any advantage would be miniscule. Sure - maybe change for next year, but hardly life-threatening.

morethanpotatoprints Thu 11-Sep-14 12:47:19

I too read your thread and thought they are highly unlikely to be able to do anything to make a difference in that short time.
If it is something they haven't learned its not going to happen over a lunch break with your sister.
I wouldn't worry, if they are bright enough they will get a place.

Itsfab Thu 11-Sep-14 12:47:57

Why urgent? Why share?

GlaceCherries Thu 11-Sep-14 12:55:33

What would you propose that the schools do about this kind of situation? Not just between twins, in between sittings, but it could theoretically happen between friends.

So many hundreds of kids sit the test, the schools physically could not do it in one sitting, but have yet to reach numbers (like at Tiffin) to require a 1st round test and thus lowering the numbers for the final round.

People will talk, but it's unlikely that the kids from the morning session will be able to give detailed descriptions of the questions. And even if parents do something foolish and put it online, who would trust it? And what good can it do in that short space of time?

The issue of twins aside, kids and parents know the competition is stiff, I doubt they will want to jeopardise their own chances by enhancing other people's... confused

FWIW the twins I know who have sat those tests have always been given the same time slots, don't know any b / g twins though.

YeGodsAndLittleFishes Thu 11-Sep-14 13:04:53

Are they allowed mobile phones, to be able to photograth the paper?

The child it is passed to would still need to be able to work out how to answer the questions, get rid of the evidence that they had cheated and then try to remember what they had learned in that hour, while being on the ball enough to not give themselves away. That is assuming that the child would be willing to cheat their way into an academic environment which will then make them always feel inferior, always a fraud with a guilty secret. Children that age know better. Besides,
invigilators know what a cheat looks like, they don't do the right kinds of working out and they make the wrong kinds of silly mistakes.

OldBeanbagz Thu 11-Sep-14 13:07:21

Why share? Surely that would lessen their chance of getting in? In which I can't see the benefit.

steppemum Thu 11-Sep-14 13:11:23

my ds came out of his 11+ last year and couldn't give me any coherent description of any question on the exam!
Over the next 2 days a few trickled out.

He passed.

I think it is unlikely that any help would be helpful

morethanpotatoprints Thu 11-Sep-14 14:56:07

Ah, poor OP

She sounds stressed about her dc gaining a place.
That is the problem with letting these things get too big in your mind.
OP it is only school and not that important in the scheme of things. Take a chill pill, don't worry and for goodness sake learn the difference between a mountain and a molehill. thanks
Good luck to your dc.

AtiaoftheJulii Thu 11-Sep-14 15:23:16

There's always been a morning and afternoon sitting for Kendrick, so this has always been a theoretical possibility. But how on earth would it actually work? It would be nigh on impossible to pass on anything useful. (Having had three kids sit the Kendrick or Reading tests and seen how uninformative they are when they get out!)

Lindy123 Thu 11-Sep-14 18:49:39

Ladies, I posted this in the primary talk too and I'm going to add all of the conversations going on here. I think you should read the entire thread before you judge. Apologies for not being able to pick up the thread here earlier. Once you've read all of the posts it may be a bit clearer. You can read it all at this link and I'll post here too.

Lindy123 Thu 11-Sep-14 18:52:55

toomuchicecream Thu 11-Sep-14 16:18:29

Er - what have Reading and Kendrick got to do with Slough?!?

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spanieleyes Thu 11-Sep-14 17:08:36

How much do you think 10 year olds will recall of an exam, most of them can hardly remember what day it is, let alone the contents of an hour long exam!

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Lindy123 Thu 11-Sep-14 18:00:21

As of this year, for the purposes of this exam, they are now a consortium and all lumped together. Kids can sit in Reading and go to school in Slough and vice versa. This is brand new to this year. 3000 kids sitting the same exam on the same day but all at different times. Questions on the paper will be viral within minutes meaning the afternoon kids can see and have a huge advantage as the morning kids are allowed out before the afternoon kids go in. It's an oversight and it's being fudged.

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MirandaWest Thu 11-Sep-14 18:03:40

How much do you think the children who take it in the morning will actually remember about the exam such that they could give accurate information to children sitting it in the afternoon.

Presumably if someone's child is sitting it in the morning they won't want other children to get an advantage over them and so won't let them tell others?

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Feenie Thu 11-Sep-14 18:04:10

Surely no one would have even considered the logistics of doing that - until you posted it all over the net just now.

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Lindy123 Thu 11-Sep-14 18:04:38's not right but some of those kids will have been cramming for hours at night and during the summer holidays, I'm talking hours per I say it's not right but it is what it is...a lot of those kids will remember most of the paper and could repeat it to you afterwards...believe me I know...mine couldn't but some could. some people people would sell a kidney to get into these schools so the possibility of sharing info due to an oversight is pretty tempting.

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Kimaroo Thu 11-Sep-14 18:04:46

I would've thought that the children wouldn't divulge any content, after all they could do themselves out of a place! The twin scenario you talk about would be a drop in the ocean

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isitsnowingyet Thu 11-Sep-14 18:06:24

Thanks for the heads up

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Pooka Thu 11-Sep-14 18:11:10

What format does the test take?

Is it NVR/VR or a more SATS-like test.

Dd sat tests last year and having seen the format I am absolutely certain that she could not have passed on information on the NVR/VR/maths papers that would have meant anything at all to others sitting the test. The tests were fast paced with short sections of 30 or so questions. Lots of sections. It really wouldn't have been possible to pass on info.

If the tests are more SATS like in format, traditional exam papers with written responses rather than a lottery-style checkbox multiple choice, then it may be possible to say "the writing paper asked you to write a letter about your happiest time" or " make sure you know know about the nth term" or whatever. But the likelihood of any parent of a child taking the test actually wanting to pass advantage to an afternoon tested child would be very slim.

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Lindy123 Thu 11-Sep-14 18:12:18

The point here is that they are NOT sitting for the same school places. A boy sitting for Reading Boys will finish at 11.00AM at Reading boys. His parents could then send a text of crucial vocabulary content to his female friend or cousin who is sitting the test for the girls school two hours later......or any of the other schools in Slough in the consortium. Of course they won't share with rivals at the same school but this is NOT the same school but the same exam. It's almost impossible to believe isn't it? I couldn't believe it but it's true. The press are now involved so check out local papers tomorrow. Please see my other post about kids remembering the content..they only have to remember for as long as it takes to send a text.

If I had a boy who was sitting the exam in the morning for Reading and his twin was sitting the exam in the afternoon for Kendrick, there would actually be enough time to sit and have lunch whilst we discussed the content of the morning’s paper. Then the twin sister could sit the afternoon paper with a competitive advantage. Absurd isn't it?

The school are fudging as it would be logistical nightmare at this late stage. The issue was only raised this week when a few parents realised. This is why we have gone to the press who are running with the story.

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Lindy123 Thu 11-Sep-14 18:16:11

@Feenie, what triggered my concern was somebody approached me and suggested that I text over info for their child.....I hadn't thought of it until then but they had. Then I realised that if they had then others had and would actually do it, so I raised the concern. I hadn't given it a thought until Monday until somebody suggest I do it. I suspect that like me most people assumed that the children would be held back until they'd finished but no. At least now all of us may know rather than the unsuspecting few.

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Kimaroo Thu 11-Sep-14 18:17:51

Well it wouldn't take much to keep the morning contingent in isolation until the afternoon lot had all registered I suppose.

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RafaIsTheKingOfClay Thu 11-Sep-14 18:18:26

The press are now involved so check out local papers tomorrow.

Well, at least it's fairer now that everyone's going to know how to cheat.

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Lindy123 Thu 11-Sep-14 18:20:44

@Kimaroo....that's the point, they are NOT competing for the same place but different I say it's so absurd I couldn't believe it at first but it's true. Of course no one would share info that's going to put them out of a place. There are 6 different schools all doing the same exam with a gap in between. They can share across schools. The twins scenario is simply to clarify the point but it could be a cousin or your best mate's kid. After all they are NOT competing for the same place. Could be Reading Boys, could be Kendrick, could be one of the 4 slough schools. I know it's so daft it's unbelievable.

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Lindy123 Thu 11-Sep-14 18:27:13

@kimaroo, you would not believe the correspondence I have had with Kendrick school. I have been told it's too late now but they'll look at it next year. I have been told that the content of the paper is not transferable? There is a verbal reasoning paper where the knowledge of vocab is crucial. How difficult is it to text that to a friend. A list of five words. 2000 kids sit for 200 places. 1% point will separate these kids. Tempting to cheat if you can don't you think? There should be zero margin for error and at the moment there's nearly two hours.

This is serious stuff. I wouldn't post this without having given it a lot of thought and there are more than one of us.

I have asked a thousand time to segregate. Truth is, that would mean admitting a monumental cock up and they're not going to do that easily. Hence the press.

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Lindy123 Thu 11-Sep-14 18:42:05

@pooka brand new format. All changed this year to make it harder apparently, unless you can cheat of course. You cannot pass over the old stuff but new papers are Maths, English (verbal reasoning) and the none transferable NVR. Very transferable information now unless the verbal reasoning paper is in Russian!

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Lindy123 Thu 11-Sep-14 18:48:39

Ladies, I posted this in the primary talk too and I'm going to add all of the conversations going on here. I think you should read the entire thread before you judge. Apologies for not being able to pick up the thread here earlier. Once you've read all of the posts it may be a bit clearer. You can read it all at this link and I'll post here too.

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Lindy123 Thu 11-Sep-14 18:50:24

There is another thread discussing this ladies please take a look

OhYouBadBadKitten Thu 11-Sep-14 19:09:58

This is really bothering you isnt it?

Lindy123 Thu 11-Sep-14 19:20:15

It's really bothering a lot of us but I'm the only one posting here from that contingent.

HmmAnOxfordComma Thu 11-Sep-14 19:47:56

Same around all parts of the country. In the grammar parts of our county, you can either sit the 11+ at a primary school on a Friday or at the secondary schools on a Saturday. Same papers. Can't see the big deal. Nothing to be gained by sharing a load of figures and shapes and things with other people, even if you could remember them. An 11+ paper has to be answered so quickly that there's no time to memorise the questions.

Lindy123 Thu 11-Sep-14 20:06:23

Agree on the shapes but there is key vocab which would mean the difference between a pass and a fail. If you know the words then you know the answers. Maybe it's about time to they changed. OK if your kids passes and you didn't cheat. But if your kid failed how would you ever know if they had prior knowledge. You wouldn't. All papers are different. If the comprehension is a difficult poem. Someone sends you the title. In this scenario you have two hours to go through it and explain the inference to your child. Remember, these kids are sitting for DIFFERENT schools. If it was the same school it wouldn't matter because who would share anyway. You're not going to share with a rival. But you might help friends or family if you have no competition. And no, it's not the same all around the country. It's different in every borough.

YeGodsAndLittleFishes Thu 11-Sep-14 20:08:30

So, have you asked Kendrick what they do when anew year 7 child is not able to keep up with the work? Do they recommend that they change schools, or recommend that the parents pay for extra tutoring, or provide extra classes for them? Because surely if your child is academically focussed enough to thrive at Kendrick then you won't be worried about them getting a place. Your concern would be about a friend they make who drops out after a few weeks because they can't keep up, or who is never available at break time or after school or weekends because they have so much work to catch up on.

TittingAbout Thu 11-Sep-14 20:12:51

Have a cuppa, OP. It'll all be alright. Nothing to get all worked up about.

GlaceCherries Thu 11-Sep-14 20:20:48

The Slough grammars have been sharing the tests for years I believe... haven't ever heard about cheating in this way in that consortium...

OP you do sound stressed, which won't help you or your DC. Take care and good luck.

Lindy123 Thu 11-Sep-14 20:25:28

@tittingabout.....Thanks for the advice but I prefer wine at this time of night. Yegosandlittlefishes not sure what your point is and how it relates to this thread...this is not about me worrying whether my child gets in this is about fairness and the integrity of 3000 kids trying their best. If she passes she passes, if she doesn't she tried but I want to be 100% certain that the kid that pipped her to the post didn't have prior knowledge of even one question on that paper. I suspect you might feel the same in my situation.

CatherineofMumbles Thu 11-Sep-14 20:48:05

Have you shared this on the elevenplus exams website? Now there's a place for a thing like this to make people go into orbit grin

YeGodsAndLittleFishes Thu 11-Sep-14 20:54:39

My point it, it is not your call, the decision of how the schools arrive at their selection process is not up to you. Also, sharing this 'news' with as many people as possible just before the test date is not how to clamp down on cheating it is a way to encourage it and plant the seed in desperate parents or children who might.

And no, both my children are in a super selective grammar school and if they had not got places there, I would consider that they were not a good match for the school and not be at all interested in the child that 'pipped them to the post'.

Lindy123 Thu 11-Sep-14 22:38:17


again don't quite understand your post? (see excerpt at bottom of page) "And no, both my children are in a super selective grammar"......And you're right it is not my call how they determine selection and that is not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to point out that information can be passed from one candidate to another in a two hour lapse between exams competing for different schools, which will enable them to have a competitive advantage.

Child one sits history GCSE at school x in the morning.....child one then goes home for a couple of hours and texts his cousin in another part of the country who's sitting his in the afternoon (they are not competing for a selective school) "Hey mate, make sure you cover Anne Boleyn cos she comes up loads." cousin replies..."Wicked mate, I'm doing my geography GCSE in the morning and yours is in the afternoon innit, so I'll text you the questions tomorrow...OK cuz nice one man! "Wicked man."

"And no, both my children are in a super selective grammar school and if they had not got places there, I would consider that they were not a good match for the school and not be at all interested in the child that 'pipped them to the post."

poisonedbypen Thu 11-Sep-14 22:43:24

In Bucks the same 11plus test can be sat from now until next July. Fair? Probably not. Life isn't. In many areas children have been kept off sick so they can sit back up dates and hope to find out some questions. It's really not a matter of life & death.

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