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The Muslim Tearoom

(1000 Posts)
HardlyEverHoovers Wed 20-Mar-13 15:25:06

Salaams/peace to all! I'm already missing our old thread, so taking the bull by the horns and opening our very own Muslim Tearoom, all welcome (non-Muslims too of course), to chat, share, ask questions etc etc. Imagine a cosy cafe with floor cushions, tea and coffee of all kinds, and lovely cakes! Please join me!

nailak Wed 08-May-13 23:08:23

going to jail cant compensate either, but money is more useful to a family whose breadwinner has been taken away and in a society without benefits can be difference between life and death

MareeyaDolores Thu 09-May-13 00:41:36

Restorative justice

crescentmoon Thu 09-May-13 08:10:33

thanks mareeya, i have watched programmes on that same type of initiative and its helped me to think through cotes points.

in turkey is the emphasis in criminal law about what laws have been broken? who did it? and what does the offender deserve? or is it about who has been harmed? what are their needs? whose obligations are these? does diya mean they have escaped punishment or is it also not a punishment itself? its often set so high that relatives need to be involved it cannot be met by one individual alone. do you think it serves as a deterrent effect more than the drawbacks you said could result? in that case there are far more cases witnesses to crimes being bribed or intimidated not to appear in court. in our case there wasnt a wrangle about who was responsible - he was driving the car - the focus was about what did that family consider justice.

in the UK victims of violent crime can be awarded a payment from the criminal in lots of cases see here compensation for victioms by the court or receive a payment from the state.

in the latter case victims of violent crime can receive criminal injuries compensation from the government but its called "an expression of public sympathy for innocent victims of violent crime." for people on law incomes whose injuries are not enough to receive that compensation then they can apply for the the Hardship Fund. so there is an element of financial compensation for people who have been the victims of crime. but not their relatives to receive in cases of death unless they directly sue and take it to court.

iv heard of some people, even if they are poor, who will not take diya and instead ask for prison or even worse for the perpetrator. this is what happens in my friend's country Yemen. that is their right religiously and they cant be compelled or guilted into forgiving or taking diya otherwise. i dont know if i would be like that myself.

and there is the issue of does the whole family agree?

got to go to work today but il be on later tonight.

CoteDAzur Thu 09-May-13 14:03:15

"in the UK victims of violent crime can be awarded a payment from the criminal in lots of cases"

Like in most places, I would imagine, but this payment does not let the criminal get away without a jail sentence. You get the punishment the law says you get for the crime, and on top of that, you pay for the damage, loss in earnings, etc that you have caused.

"in turkey..."

Don't get me started about the travesty that legal system has become in Turkey in recent years. In any case, it doesn't have diyya and I not think of a word that would be its equivalent in Turkish.

"is the emphasis in criminal law about what laws have been broken? who did it? and what does the offender deserve?"

I believe this is what all Western law is about, yes.

"or is it about who has been harmed? what are their needs? whose obligations are these?"

Where is law about any of that? I'm guessing that you didn't go about finding out exactly who was harmed by that man's death, but just gave the money to a family member. What about his best friend who maybe can't get over his death, the company he was working at where maybe he was a key man and they struggled after his death? Did he have a mistress who loved him? She needs a man to keep her warm at night and whose obligation is it to find her another man now?

"does diya mean they have escaped punishment or is it also not a punishment itself?"

Well, he escaped prison for life and is now out living his life while the man he killed is dead and buried, so yes, we can safely say that he has escaped punishment by buying it off.

"witnesses to crimes being bribed or intimidated not to appear in court"

There is something called forensic science these days, that has largely diminished the weight of unreliable eye witnesses.

Not that it's even relevant. This isn't about identification of the criminal, it is about what to do to him once he has been identified and found guilty. In a diyya system the suspect can also refuse responsibility and then you would still need eye witnesses, forensics etc.

crescentmoon Fri 10-May-13 04:26:29

The family as a group approached our relatives not just one member. And it has to be the group because it has to satisfy all members so that one doesn't off and seek retribution/vengeance. It is made after accepting guilt/being found guilty- not diya is in place of being found guilty.
In the UK my relative wouldn't have automatically even have had a prison sentence for causing death in a car accident. There are many cases of drivers who had caused deaths being given community orders in place of a prison sentence. It would have needed to go to court, with the state paying for the defence lawyers and also it being upon the prosecution's lawyers to prove death by dangerous driving or death by careless driving. If anyone followed the case of the drivers of the car that killed haroon jahan and the two other brothers in Birmingham during the summer 2011. After the trial got under way a year later- which is not atypical of such cases- they eventually walked free. in this case the man pleaded guilty to causing death by careless driving and had his driving license banned - no prison sentence. In the country where it occurred, yu might languish in prison for years while waiting for your case to come up- unless you pay to speed it up. And then the court orders costs to be paid to itself during the trial as well as being imprisoned so the accused is punished twice.

As for forensic science of course that all comes in wen someone is saying 'I am not guilty' whereas the first condition of diya is accepting guilt for the crime. It's maybe- would like to now from anyone who knows the law- like an out of court settlement which often is negotiated by third parties. Our relative admitted guilt for the death and our family even to my older brother contributed to the compensation.
Interesting yu mention non relatives- it's the wider community also that need to see justice and that the victim's death or even injury (diya is also for injuries not just death/murder) is not taken lightly or for nothing. Though they do not benefit financially there is also community satisfaction of seeing the victims dependants provided for, not brought to destitution, if there were debts owed by the victim that they can be paid etc. is the community seeking justice and the state seeking justice the same thing?

it can be controversial, the father of murdered lucie Blackman accepted nearly half a million pounds compensation - condolence money- for her murder from the murderer's side (his best friend) in Japan but then her mother and other family were enraged when the accused was subsequently found not guilty in the trial. The father was accused of being a judas by lucies mother as he took the money without conferring with the rest of the family but it was a biblical the bible judas accepted the silver in return for giving up Jesus to the authorities and that was called blood money. So the translation of the Muslim term to a person with a Christian or biblical background may bring to mind that negative event whereas the contexts and meanings are different.

in Islam Diya is about restitution and is a form of restorative justice. Theres a hadith where Muhammad (pbuh) said that diya has come to replace retaliation. Previous to that the law was an eye for an eye, life for life death sentence etc but then the quran introduced diya as one of the options for the victim or their family as well as pardoning or asking the state to punish In terms of eg applying the death penalty or prison. it is not based on the accusers ability to pay or timescale- as is considered during awardig of compensation n the Uk- but on the needs of the victim. It's an option you cannot compel the victims side to forgive nor to accept diya if they want a harsher punishment. So a rich person can still be deterred from committing crime involving injury or death as diya exists alongside other harsher punishments- just as much as a poor person may be pardoned too.
My relative himself didn't have much money, but with his brothers and cousins including my older brother he was able to stump up the cash. If you were well off but your family wouldn't stand by you it's still not possible to pay diya. But then other factors like religious injunctions or honour/shame mechanisms would fall in.

Anyway my thoughts cote.

naila saw your thread on AIbU about receiving notice its a bummer sis I'm sorry about you having to move house. Were in same situation abit in that we now might have to move - im waiting for news (and a miracle) next month though. If i leave where i live now i dont thnk my heart can take it i love my neighbours and community, the kid's school, the house im in. and the new place is still further away from my family so im struggling abit to have tawakkul allallah. Allah make it easy for you and me ameen.

i took hardlys advice about joining about joining and ansar finance though their website is under construction it was alot more detailed during the last thread! So we're hoping to be able to take out interest free loans by the end of this year beginning of next year. They have stopped giving out mortgages though as they have a huge waiting list and need a bigger pot but I think for home deposits and lower they can do.

As for the halal thread on AIBU, did anyone catch the news about Leicester school 'halal' burgers having pork in them?

I have less and less trust in the whole industry tbh. Food has to be halal, tayyib, have Barakah be pure. dont think there is barakah in the food we eat. Iv linked before but other places about these two organic halal farms in the UK in Oxford- personal experience there its lovely and the brother and sister that run it are really inspiring.

And Abraham Natural produce organic halal farm in Somerset:

If yu live close to either you can go and buy your meat. I know its expensive and very far for many but its good UK Muslims are thinking about the whole Sunnah of halal not just the last part of the process.

crescentmoon Fri 10-May-13 04:32:03

Goodness my last post looks ginormous on phone screen sorry for typos / crap grammar etc. ma asalama! (Come on get posting even if its just the inconsequentials! The last thread went from heavy to light to mundane to esoteric lets get this thread going too! hardly have you come back yet? Habibti this was your thread to begin with lol!)

crescentmoon Fri 10-May-13 04:40:03

Here's the chapter in the 'fiqh of medicine' upon diya and liability in the case of medical malpractice.

Very important in the early Muslim community and interesting they had early medical defence unions hundreds of years ago.

Sweetsandchocolate Fri 10-May-13 21:24:02

Salams to you all. I have a question regarding breastfeeding - I'm going to a big Bengali wedding on Sunday, I'm an English convert and my DH is Bengali, and its his cousin's wedding so there will be a lot of people there we haven't seen in yonks. We will have to travel about an hour and a half to get to the wedding and will be taking our 3 DC, youngest is 5 weeks old and he is on and off the boob 2 hourly, if I'm lucky. I don't want to wear a sari because I'm hopeless at fixing it so will be wearing salwar kameez, the long heavily embroidered sequinned kind that will have to be virtually taken off to bf. my question - can I bf in the main wedding hall if my DH covers me with a big scarf? I don't want to go all that way and end up spending most of it in the toilets feeding iykwim!

MareeyaDolores Fri 10-May-13 22:00:11

What about a lehenga choli (skirt kameez)? The blouse doesn't need to be this skimpy, actually the tight sari blouses are a nightmare for feeding anyway.

Tbh, I'd go with the giant scarf and get a tailor to adapt the kameez unless its a family heirloom.

That said, I'm a Catholic lurker, so best get some Islamc advice too, as if i get it wrong youll be blush or you might end up feeding in the loo at short notice confused

MareeyaDolores Fri 10-May-13 22:01:24

Shame it's not a 'one hall for the ladies' wedding really, would be easier.

Sweetsandchocolate Fri 10-May-13 23:03:38

Thanks Mareeya. Unfortunately I haven't got time (or energy with a newborn lol) to get an outfit for Sunday, and the only lengha I have doesn't fit my post pregnancy shape (sigh). There may be a separate hall for ladies, that's a possibility. If there's not, I'm not sure about being allowed to bf in public areas. I've asked some Muslim friends, they said I shouldn't be going anywhere with such a young baby and should stay at home to rest, so that didn't help me much!

MareeyaDolores Fri 10-May-13 23:37:04

Can you open up the side seams of the kameez? Bit of Velcro, poppers, or even just a co-ordinating vest underneath?

MareeyaDolores Fri 10-May-13 23:41:28

If your mum was Bengali shed have had a big row with mil about 'not looking after you properly' and what will people think of you at any religious event so close to 'first 40 days'.

MareeyaDolores Fri 10-May-13 23:45:17

Can you open up the side seams of the kameez? Bit of Velcro, poppers, or even just a co-ordinating vest underneath?

<brainwave> Bengali breastfeeding helpline. Dont panic, Bilingual staff grin

crescentmoon Fri 10-May-13 23:47:45

this is going to be about bengali culture more than anything else sweetsandchocolate! it depends whats normal for them. in the Middle East even niqabi women can breastfeed in public its seen as a normal thing completely separate to other thing, but its about what they think is unusual.

but agree with mareeya get a new outfit. are you going to lift the whole top of the shalwar up to breastfeed? thats acres of fabric! wear a vest top underneath to cover your stomach then, not for modesty as much as your comfort!

mareeya you must be well acquainted with muslim culture to know the significance of the first 40 days! i put my feet up during that whole time

Sweetsandchocolate Sat 11-May-13 00:22:01

Crescent, that's a good idea, I'll wear a vest, I hadn't thought of that.

Mareeya I have zero tailoring skills. And I live nowhere near Asian clothes shops. I've got an Englsh wedding in a few weeks and I've already bought a maxi dress with an elasticated top part (wearing with cardigan and scarf of course) but so easy to discreetly bf.

My mil passed away couple of years ago, but she'd prob have said for me to bottle feed at the wedding! She loved a good party.

Thanks for your help. I'll let you know how I get on!

nailak Sat 11-May-13 02:07:41

Think if you ate discrete at the back no one will mind,

Sweetsandchocolate Sat 11-May-13 11:06:25

Thanks Nailak. I just phoned the venue, it's on the 2nd floor with a special access only lift and they don't know if its going to be segregated or not. My DH is saying you don't take prams to a wedding, I have to hold baby. I'm getting more stressed by the minute now! I have to sit for 3 or 4 hours holding baby? Really? I think everything's pointing at me not going. Can't use the 40 day thing, as he'll be 42 days lol

nailak Sat 11-May-13 12:48:50

I think people with young kids do take prams or car seats otherwise where would the babies sleep! If it is segregated makes it harder for you as how will you eat and stuff!

MareeyaDolores Sat 11-May-13 13:14:03

Don't take prams? Rubbish! And I say that as a baby-wearing co-sleeping ecological-breastfeeding-for-family-spacing, sling-obsessed nutcase grin With two others to chase after, having no-where to put a sleeping baby trumps any cultural sensitivity considerations!

This sounds to me like your dh assuming that being a Bengali male makes him an expert on Bengali women and their thought processes. A mistake common to men of all cultures grin wink. Ring the helpline, or the mosque local to the wedding, or a handy cousin, and ask them?

MareeyaDolores Sat 11-May-13 13:57:57

crescent, when I was post-natally struggling along with a newborn and two big dc, it was (by and large) the most elderly, traditionally dressed, obviously Muslim gentleman who would hold doors, offer a seat on the bus etc. I think they were horrified at how the UK treats mothers.

MareeyaDolores Sat 11-May-13 13:59:30

actually, come to think of it, maybe one of them will be at the wedding and help OP out grin

nailak Sun 12-May-13 01:48:59

I sure everyone will be wanting to help out! But sometimes can get too much for baby!

crescentmoon Sun 12-May-13 10:59:02

if you cant get a pram in take the car seat up with you. last year i wnt to a late night wedding and ds2 fell asleep early on. no buggy or car seat but as i was sitting in a corner i put my coat and abayah on the floor and put him down and covered him up with another coat. he slept through the whole wedding and i had a great time. but one other lady was appalled id put him on the floor and refused to leave his side so i was getting up and joining in the fun and she was saying 'someone has to stay and keep an eye on him' lol. i didnt know her well but she was my mum's friend so i didnt feel too criticised!

"baby-wearing co-sleeping ecological-breastfeeding-for-family-spacing, sling-obsessed nutcase"

lol mareeya, loved that ha. i was very routine obsessed with first two dc, in their own cots, breastfed at set intervals, definitely not baby wearing. but when ds3 came along i changed and breastfed on demand, carried him in a sling until he was 7 months before using the buggy, he co slept and breastfed until nearly 18 months, that child told us we didnt tell him!

LostAndNeverFound Mon 13-May-13 06:55:11

Salaam all, how are you all doing?

Sweets, I hope the wedding went ok, what did you do in the end? Wish I saw this earlier as a couple of Asian ladies I know had a zip tailored in under each boob so all they have to do is unzip and latch baby on very discreetly. I too have a nearly 5 week old breast feeding 2 hourly around the clock! It's tiring but satisfying.

Nailak I haven't seen your thread in aibu but from what crescent said your landlord has given you notice? Same here. We've got under 2 months to find somewhere to live which is virtually impossible as we don't have a deposit big enough for another rented house. The council said they may have to place us in temporary accommodation until they find us a house sad.

Crescent I just wanted to say thank you again smile.

I've only read the last page of this thread, I'll catch up on it today hopefully.

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