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The NI border issue can never be resolved can it?

(459 Posts)
Bearbehind Sun 14-Jul-19 20:39:23

We would have left by now if is wasn’t for the border issue in NI and I genuinely can’t see a positive outcome.

If, 20 years after the GFA, peace is still so fragile a border is incompressible and any other option basically breaks up the union - how can it ever end well?

bellinisurge Sun 14-Jul-19 21:22:21

I've wittered on about my solution if we must Leave. Border in the sea/NI made a special economic area in which GFA protecting fudge is created.
That's it. That's the only thing I can come up with.
Or WA.
Or Revoke and Remain.

DtPeabodysLoosePants Sun 14-Jul-19 21:25:23

No solution that I can see. The GFA needs protecting but so many don't seem to realise this.

KennDodd Sun 14-Jul-19 21:27:55

Have you ever met a Leaver who gives a shit about the peace in NI though?

DtPeabodysLoosePants Sun 14-Jul-19 21:30:18

I've met a few who had no idea of the implications for the GFA.

Eaudear Sun 14-Jul-19 21:30:32

Have you ever met a Leaver who gives a shit about the peace in NI though?

Nope.

DullPortraits Sun 14-Jul-19 21:37:09

I don't remember remain campaigning in the referendum re the GFA to be fair 💁🏽‍♀️

Clavinova Sun 14-Jul-19 21:38:25

The voters in Northern Ireland voted 44% to Leave the EU in 2016 - a surprisingly large minority considering.

TooTrueToBeGood Sun 14-Jul-19 21:39:18

The border is perfectly fine as it is now so there is no border issue, just a Brexit issue. It scares me and saddens me that there are politicians who will likely throw the people of NI under a bus without a second thought and that so many people will support them doing so.

To add, 20 years is nothing in the grand scheme of the history of the green isle. The fact that you think they've had more than enough time to put their grievances behind them suggests you don't really understand the situation.

bellinisurge Sun 14-Jul-19 21:39:21

Well you weren't paying attention. Or you allowed Faridge to repeatedly try to shut it down because he knew it was the weak point.

bellinisurge Sun 14-Jul-19 21:40:04

@Clavinova , listening to the minority now, are you?

Clavinova Sun 14-Jul-19 21:43:10

listening to the minority now, are you?

They know more about the Northern Ireland problem than most of us - 44% were not 'particularly concerned'.

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 14-Jul-19 21:43:24

It's not just that our fragile peace could shatter, theres the additional problem of the NI population being EU citizens. Including quite a few of the minority here who voted Leave then rushed to get Irish passports.hmmshockgrin

bellinisurge Sun 14-Jul-19 21:45:08

And 48% across the UK voted to Remain. Make your mind up which minority you listen to.
If you knew anything about NI you would know that for Remain to get a majority there BOTH communities voted for it. It wouldn't happen otherwise.

Bearbehind Sun 14-Jul-19 22:01:12

To add, 20 years is nothing in the grand scheme of the history of the green isle. The fact that you think they've had more than enough time to put their grievances behind them suggests you don't really understand the situation.

I admit I probably don’t - the way I see it is that the border being the reason Brexit might not happen, can’t end well.

And if nothing has changed in 20 years, when will it?

jasjas1973 Sun 14-Jul-19 22:06:32

I don't remember remain campaigning in the referendum re the GFA to be fair

True the DM or Express didn't raise it but it was talked about on BBC/CH4 and more serious 'papers, though many brexitiers poo hoo'ed it as Project Fear - a genius piece of electoral manipulation and one which Remain never countered.

For a leave voter in Southampton or Hull, NI may as well be on another planet for as much as it may concern them.

Peregrina Sun 14-Jul-19 22:07:44

I don't remember remain campaigning in the referendum re the GFA to be fair

Well I do, because that is what swung my vote to Remain.

The voters in Northern Ireland voted 44% to Leave the EU in 2016 - a surprisingly large minority considering.

So? A bigger percentage voted Remain in the whole UK but have been told to get lost. Either you believe in winner takes all or you don't.

bellinisurge Sun 14-Jul-19 22:10:18

It was on here loads too. But ... y'know ..."Project Fear" and all that shit.

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 14-Jul-19 22:10:46

It will change in it's own time. I would love to be more specific and optimistic but we've had periods of stability before only for it to go tits up again. We need a very prolonged period of equality (remember that NI Catholics were still fighting for civil rights in the late 1960s) and peace for it to stick.

And as I said most of us will remain EU citizens regardless. How will the rest of the UK deal with that?confused

Peregrina Sun 14-Jul-19 22:15:32

How will the rest of the UK deal with that?

Presumably Leavers will be delighted, that they are no longer EU citizens - the ones that haven't rushed to claim Irish passports that is.

The Remainers among us, who can't claim another passport will still be fed up (being polite) about Leavers.

JoxerGoesToStuttgart Sun 14-Jul-19 22:16:26

I’m sick of these goady ass threads pointing the finger at us stupid Irish/N.Irish.

The NI/ROI border is not the problem.

The problem is that a Tory government promised something it could never deliver and yet again, thick fucks believed them without doing any of their own research. Now they’ve done the research and realised “oops” we didn’t think of that. But instead of swallowing their pride and saying “we have to scrap this” they’re passing the buck.

Bercows Sun 14-Jul-19 22:17:08

Tbh I was very politically ignorant until all this brexit nonsense and ha e had a steep learning curve. I voted remain based on education/universities/health/research/nhs. I based my vote on what I knew the benefits of the Eu to be which admittedly was only a small proportion of what the positives actually are. I don't remember any campaign in particular apart from that bus. I was at the time embroiled in sorting out my children, my abusive ex that I was trying to divorce and had numerous court hearings around that time. I had little interest in politics bar the effects of austerity. The referendum was the very start of my interest. At the time I only discussed it with one friend, also voting remain.
It was only on coming to mumsnet in the last year that I have realised the huge implications of brexit especially in terms of the GFA. I'm ashamed to say I didn't even know about the GFA. Since then I've done a lot of reading and made it my business to find out as I was ignorant and ashamed that all this had somehow passed me by. I really enjoyed learning about the history of Ireland right from when it was various kingdoms. My knowledge of the Troubles increased massively and caused me great distress and anxiety. Both brothers were British forces and stationed in NI in the late 80s and early 90s. I lived in fear of them being killed. They are much older than me so I was just a child at this time. Every day I was an anxious mess when my parents watched the news experience ting yet another bombing. I can't imagine what it was like for the people living there. I was and still am angry that the importance of the GFA was glossed over or ignored by those in a position of power and knowledge who needed to explain to the public very clearly what brexit would mean for NI. I'm angry that living in England (I am of Irish descent albeit way back) that this is not taught in schools. This is UK history, why are we not teaching it? And if you don't know it then why aren't you making it your business to learn it like I did?
I posted a thread around 9 months ago on the border issue. No one could answer as to a solution bar bellinisurge with her border in the sea idea. I'm not sure how that would work but there's no other solution that anyone has come up with.

Clavinova for once makes a valid point: I was surprised at the voting figures for NI considering the impact of brexit for them. I was also surprised at the low turn out there. I would have thought that with the GFA at stake that more people would have turned out and more would have voted remain. I'd be interested to hear from voters there why they voted leave. Is there any info does anyone know?

HigaDequasLuoff Sun 14-Jul-19 22:23:48

The NI border issue can be resolved by the UK remaining in the EU or transitioning to an alternative treaty arrangement to allow free flow of goods and people across between and south.

There is no other way. Anything which isn't one of the above will not be a resolution and will be a massive mistake.

DtPeabodysLoosePants Sun 14-Jul-19 22:24:20

JoxerGoesToStuttgart nobody has pointed the finger or called anyone from
Ireland stupid.

The question is to whether or not there is a solution to the border because no one wants a hard border but how we get round that no one seems to know.

Bearbehind Sun 14-Jul-19 22:24:25

I’m sick of these goady ass threads pointing the finger at us stupid Irish/N.Irish.

It’s the complete opposite of ‘goady ass’

I’m saying blaming the border will not end well.

Brexit is a fuck up of epic proportions - pinning it being impossible on NI can only make matters worse.

MirandaGoshawk Sun 14-Jul-19 22:30:23

A lot of good sense being talked here. The politicians who said leaving would be easy are either ignorant or stupid. I can't see a practical solution.

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 14-Jul-19 22:30:42

Sinn Fein, a historically anti-EU party didn't want to do an about face in the run up to the Referendum, so didn't campaign or mobilise their voters to vote Remain. Some Republicans voted Leave to force a Border Poll. The DUP were very vocally Leave and got their voters to turn out promising them whatever shit the DUP promise their voters. However neither party actually thought the vote would go the way it did.

Add to that, all Leave voters here had the Irish citizenship thing to fall back on and they have. Even our DUP politicians applied for Irish passports post Brexit.hmm

TooTrueToBeGood Sun 14-Jul-19 22:35:00

This is UK history, why are we not teaching it?

Probably because it doesn't paint us in a very good light. Centuries of cultural, if not actual, genocide and oppression is not exactly something to be proud of. Much easier to focus the public's attention on the actions of a murderous few and promote the assumption that if terrorism is used to further a cause then the cause itself has no validity. Easier also to conveniently gloss over the fact that terrorism was employed by both sides and indeed by the state itself.

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Sun 14-Jul-19 22:43:37

Bits of it used to be on the A level history syllabus. Although that was several revisions ago. Not sure if it’s still an option.

HateIsNotGood Sun 14-Jul-19 22:59:37

It's disgusting that the RoI/NI border has become THE issue that Brexit is governed by. I agree with TooGood - the difficulties are well-entrenched and pre-date EU, in all its forms. The EU didn't create GFA, they were merely party to it with RoI and UK membership creating the mechanism to allow it in a 'legal' form.

The USA stomping on Noraid, and therefore IRA funding, was the essential force de majeure. As far as I am concerned, the Border should be 'out of bounds' in the Brexit process.

It's so non-EU to worsen the situation by making it a Brexit issue - throwing all the people in the green isle under the EU Bus - because it's the most precious toy they can throw out of their pram. Horrible, disgusting behaviour like a tantrumming child picking up the most precious thing in the house and threatening to smash it if Mummy does give them their own way.

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 14-Jul-19 23:03:48

As far as I am concerned, the Border should be 'out of bounds' in the Brexit process.
What does you mean?confused

DtPeabodysLoosePants Sun 14-Jul-19 23:07:21

How can it be out of bounds if it will be the land border between the UK and the EU and therefore requires a physical border? NI would have to be given some kind of special status for there not to be a border otherwise why does NI/Ireland get treated differently to any other EU/non-EU border?

HateIsNotGood Sun 14-Jul-19 23:13:07

I mean exactly as I said - the Border should be 'sorted' by the people who are 'sorting' it now - the RoI/NI/UK. There isn't currently an EU border-force and the UN (thankfully) have no need to be there. So, is there any particular reason that we can't keep it a peaceful, open border irrespective of Brexit?

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Sun 14-Jul-19 23:15:39

I’m fairly certain that the Irish don’t feel like they’re being thrown under a bus here. Or at least not by the EU.

The EU are acting on behalf of the Irish government and it’s citizens, in order to protect them. It isn’t the fault of NI or Ireland that the U.K. voted to leave without carefully considering the consequences.

HateIsNotGood Sun 14-Jul-19 23:19:59

There are many reasons in various rulebooks that state keeping an open border between RoI/NI transgresses some rule or another if Brexit were to happen. None of these sets of rules really have maintaining the Peace at their heart - so if the existing sets of rules don't allow for that, why is it so impossible to create a new set of rules that does put Peace in the Green Isle at it's heart.

Again the EU can be a party to signing up to these new rules, similar to their role in GFA.

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 14-Jul-19 23:21:04

One reason is that many people who voted Leave, did so to "take back control of our borders", they're going to be pissed that the land border with the EU is an open, free for all.

Another is International trade. Is the UK not going to apply safety standards or duty on goods coming into the country?

DtPeabodysLoosePants Sun 14-Jul-19 23:22:17

I've either forgotten or missed this bit but when did the hard border appear and what was the arrangement before? I'm too tired to figure out the dates in my head of how the EU formed to include the UK, and Ireland and how the border worked in that.

Eyewhisker Sun 14-Jul-19 23:23:02

Clay - agreed. The EU has Ireland’s back and that is hugely popular in both RoI and for a large part of NI. The EU must stand up for small countries and not allow the UK to force Ireland out of the EU against its will.

HateIsNotGood Sun 14-Jul-19 23:23:07

Rufus I'm also fairly certain that the people of RoI are more than capable of speaking for themselves, rather than be 'hobbled' by their choice of words, nor be directed by the EU on how to speak them.

Eyewhisker Sun 14-Jul-19 23:25:29

Hate - we’re looking forward to hearing your rules.

The EU/Ireland have a solution. All must stay unchanged and they’re happy to accept any solution that does that. In the event one can’t be found, there’s a customs border in the Irish sea, just like the current arrangements for some goods. Not a big deal.

Eyewhisker Sun 14-Jul-19 23:27:40

Hate - you ha e things totally the wrong way round. RoI is staying what they want and the EU is working collectively to implement it. This gives ROI enormous leverage against the UK, in stark contrast to the historical position. There is no way Ireland would give that up.

HateIsNotGood Sun 14-Jul-19 23:29:49

A year or 2 before the Referendum was a glint in Cameron's eye, the EU were making noises about how unfair the 'special FOM' arrangements between the RoI/UK were (these predated the EU) and that they should be abolished to obtain 'parity' betweenall EU Members. I thought then that the EU didn't have much of an understanding and their actions since further substantiate my view.

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 14-Jul-19 23:31:05

Hate, at the minute the UK and ROI are both members of the same trading bloc, therefore they don't need a border force. The UK have voted to Leave that trading bloc in order to apply their own rules and regulations to people and products entering the country.

HateIsNotGood Sun 14-Jul-19 23:40:39

Eye - why does the RoI need any "leverage against the UK"? And are you saying there's an "historical position" that needs "contrasting"? If so, that sounds like there's some unresolved grieviances going on.

So, that is why I say, sod rule books, the 'status quo' seems to be working thus far, if the UK wants to leave the EU that should be fine and if a separate Rule Book needs to be made to keep the Border 'status quo' then we should write one to suit that.

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 14-Jul-19 23:44:47

If the 'status quo' seems to be working thus far, why Leave at all? What would change?

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Sun 14-Jul-19 23:50:11

Do you think all the other countries we might want to trade with when we’re out of the EU are going to agree to that special rule book?

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 14-Jul-19 23:54:14

if the UK wants to leave the EU that should be fine and if a separate Rule Book needs to be made to keep the Border 'status quo' then we should write one to suit that.
How does ^^ differ from the Backstop (which was rejected by parliament) Hate?

HateIsNotGood Sun 14-Jul-19 23:58:34

Dione there are many reasons that the UK electorate voted to Leave - very few people brought up that the RoI/NI border might be a 'difficult' issue, although Theresa May did, prior to the Referendum. And look what happened to her - a political 'knee-capping'.

The crux of it could be - that it's too difficult so the UK can't leave the EU. Then is that really fair to the people on the mainland - that they can't leave the EU because of the minority in NI? Maybe that could be the best (if not right) approach.

But then there is another view too - for all my nearly 6 decades of life - it is quite incomprehensible to the vast majority of people that live on the mainlaand that anyone on the Green Isle would actually want to and kill each other over whatever differences they have, as a normality. The Scots and English gave that up as a bad thing to do centuries ago.

So tell me why, people that are happy to kill as an immediate resort should dictate to those that prefer to insult, yet not killeach other?

DioneTheDiabolist Mon 15-Jul-19 00:10:10

The British government have been happy to kill as an immediate resort, and were the ones who brought us to Brexit, perhaps you should ask them Hate.

Your ignorance regarding NI is breathtaking and disgusting.envy

Isthisafreename Mon 15-Jul-19 00:12:36

@HateIsNotGood - I'm Irish and the only reasonable response I can come up with to your posts is to ask: Are you on glue?

Isthisafreename Mon 15-Jul-19 00:14:47

@HateIsNotGood - and please, stop referring to Ireland as the Green Isle. It simply reinforces the impression that you're on glue.

pallisers Mon 15-Jul-19 00:25:55

I mean exactly as I said - the Border should be 'sorted' by the people who are 'sorting' it now - the RoI/NI/UK. There isn't currently an EU border-force and the UN (thankfully) have no need to be there. So, is there any particular reason that we can't keep it a peaceful, open border irrespective of Brexit?

Do you have even a basic primary school understanding of what a border between countries means? Do they not teach basic geography in UK schools?

HateIsNotGood Mon 15-Jul-19 00:26:23

No, not on glue, but I do recognize that my 'sensibilities' don't make much sense to most on here. Do you not see any part of the points I'm raising freename? Really? If you truly can't then the glue must be in your eyes, your ears and your mouth. Can you really not see that killing your own people, in your own island and elsewhere isn't 'right' in any way at all?

That the 'idea' that if the UK leaves the EU some people will go and kill some other people because, well, you tell me why some Irish people want to go kill some other Irish people?

That, my friend, is for you to work out and explain to the likes of me. Meanwhile, do you really mind if the UK leaves the EU? Wouldn't it be preferable if we did? Why keep such an 'heinous' country such as the UK in your 'bloc' - isn't it more pro-Irish to welcome our removal from your latest 'alliance'?

pallisers Mon 15-Jul-19 00:28:50

Jesus you are stupid.

HateIsNotGood Mon 15-Jul-19 00:31:09

Well as the insults are rolling in now, I'll say adieu. Green Isle was used as a pp used it - my personal preference is for the Island of Ireland - no doubt causing offence to someone somewhere.

Much as I prefer insults to killing, torturing and maiming...I'll leave you now to vent your spleens at your imaginary adversaries.

DioneTheDiabolist Mon 15-Jul-19 00:42:41

Hate, your points make no sense whatsoever.confused

well, you tell me why some Irish people want to go kill some other Irish people?
Why don't you tell us why some UK citizens want to go kill some other UK citizens in the UK? How much of your nearly 60 years have you actually lived here?

JoxerGoesToStuttgart Mon 15-Jul-19 00:44:38

shock

No words. Just.....none.

Isthisafreename Mon 15-Jul-19 00:55:21

@HateIsNotGood - but I do recognize that my 'sensibilities' don't make much sense to most on here.

I guess that's a start.

Do you not see any part of the points I'm raising freename? Really? If you truly can't then the glue must be in your eyes, your ears and your mouth.

I can see from the "points" you're making that you have no understanding of anything going on in Ireland, north or south.

Can you really not see that killing your own people, in your own island and elsewhere isn't 'right' in any way at all?

Who said anything about killing anyone? And to suggest that I might condone killing is insulting, but I assume you're well aware of that.

The issue with the border is that is contravenes the GFA as it prevents the continued operation of the cross-border co-operation that was implemented as part of the GFA.

mineallmine Mon 15-Jul-19 00:55:43

O sweet Jesus. You think you've heard it all and then this.

GreyTS Mon 15-Jul-19 00:59:23

@hate Wtf was that all about? Some kind of thinly veiled denunciation of all us Irish as terrorists and murderers? I tell you nothing fucking changes does it, you lot caused all this trouble and now you're trying to blame us for it? Fuck right off for yourself you uneducated twit

TheEmpireNoMore Mon 15-Jul-19 05:16:08

Wonder if reason Boris is talking about 20,000 more police is in anticipation of troubles connected to the border issue?

bellinisurge Mon 15-Jul-19 05:32:01

"The EU didn't create GFA" .... er.... actually it was heavily involved in creating it.

LifeMovedOn Mon 15-Jul-19 06:17:13

GFA was created in 1998. Long before Bexit became a subject. So no provision made in the event UK voted to leave the EU.

GFA either overlooked when referendum was called and before Article 50 was started or seen as irrelevant as NI is elsewhere?

bellinisurge Mon 15-Jul-19 06:39:04

HateIsNotGood GFA brought actual peace-not the pie-in- the-sky nihilistic nonsense about everyone loving the UK and doing what it wants to make Brexit easier. Actual peace. Odd that you don't think it important enough to take proper care of.
I've suggested a practical solution that allows us to Brexit and save GFA. Rather than just waffling on about some mythical crap where everyone does what you want.

DtPeabodysLoosePants Mon 15-Jul-19 07:00:21

Good god. What have I just read?

RuggerHug Mon 15-Jul-19 07:22:34

Hate, is the british government systematically killing Irish citizens 'killing their own people' is your view, or might that be a bit....off?

Why am I even trying. Look, you have access to information since you're using the internet now. Look up Irish media and how it's explained, shooting the darkness and anything that has border and RTE in a YouTube search bar might be a start.

Another poster upthread (sorry forgotten the name now) said she voted remain, knew very little about the issues but took it upon herself to learn. That's always an option. Instead of 'why is everyone not agreeing with me?' maybe ask yourself 'what am I not seeing or aware of that they are?".

Bercows Mon 15-Jul-19 07:38:02

That was me. I learnt a great deal and was appalled. I hope we can move on from the past although with such a long history it will take a long, long time. I don't think today's generations of British should be blamed for the issues. It was the government at the time .

bellinisurge Mon 15-Jul-19 07:52:48

No is blaming the present generation. Just asking them not to flush this fantastic achievement down the toilet.

Bercows Mon 15-Jul-19 07:58:08

Perhaps not but there is quite a bit of anti-English/British sentiment on mumsnet at times from Irish people.

TheEmpireNoMore Mon 15-Jul-19 08:09:14

Perhaps not but there is quite a bit of anti-English/British sentiment on mumsnet at times from Irish people

History can't be denied, but some seem to forget and move on faster than others.

USA nuked Japan in WWII, but they have done a lot of trade between each other since.

EU's origin was France and Germany deciding to trade between themselves rather than go to war.

Can't comment on Wales, but Scotland and Ireland seem to think they live in the shadow of England?

Bercows Mon 15-Jul-19 08:17:43

No, history cannot he denied, I agree. I think the threat to the GFA is a threat to moving forward as well as the actual threat to the peace process itself. Westminster are arrogant, that much is clear.

bellinisurge Mon 15-Jul-19 08:25:38

@Bercows I'm half Irish half British so I don't know what you mean. Telling the truth isn't being mean to British people. And frankly, there's a lot of shit flying around blaming Irish people for putting a "fake" confused obstacle to sacred Brexit.

bellinisurge Mon 15-Jul-19 08:26:44

Scotland and Ireland seem to think they live in the shadow of England?

1. Ireland is a separate country.
2. Have you spoken to actual Scottish people?

TooTrueToBeGood Mon 15-Jul-19 08:34:27

Perhaps not but there is quite a bit of anti-English/British sentiment on mumsnet at times from Irish people.

I wonder why that might be. So many examples but to use a couple that clarify that Irish persecution by the British is not purely in the history books. Look at how gerrymandering impacted Irish communities in NI. Control the local authorities and you control social housing, school budgets, infrastructure investment, the police and all local authority employment. That control was used ruthlessly by unionists to the severe detriment of Catholic/republican communities right up to recent times. Look at Bloody Sunday. That was not an accident. The specifics of the day may not have been planned in detail but you do not deploy a regiment of shock combat troops, world renowned for their aggression, to keep the peace.

As to the buck stopping with the British governments of the days, sorry but we are a democracy. In a democracy the electorate are accountable for the actions of their governments, whether we like it or not.

For the record, I'm a Glaswegian protestant. If the facts as I understand them compel me to have a great deal of empathy for the Irish in this debate those facts must be pretty damn conclusive. And let's be clear, if the fragile peace in NI collapses there will be no winners, everyone living there will pay the price and as human beings they deserve better.

Cutantrim Mon 15-Jul-19 09:04:42

That the 'idea' that if the UK leaves the EU some people will go and kill some other people because, well, you tell me why some Irish people want to go kill some other Irish people?

What? What? What the fuckity fuck???

Eh?

TheEmpireNoMore Mon 15-Jul-19 09:13:40

1. Ireland is a separate country

I have worked with people from both NI and ROI. Impression I get is that those from ROI want a united Ireland a bit more than NI? However, I have not lived or worked in either NI or ROI.

2. Have you spoken to actual Scottish people?

Lived in Scotland for several years. A regular subject, particularly among younger persons, was how the English stole their North Sea Oil and they should have gone it alone decades ago. Older persons seem to be more in favour remaining a member of the UK.

Peregrina Mon 15-Jul-19 09:21:58

I am quite astonished at your recent posts HateIs, when you tell us that you have been alive for nearly six decades. How can you not know about 'The Troubles' and not recognise what a huge achievement the GFA was? To be in danger of throwing the peace it engendered away because of a Referendum designed to shut up a bunch of moneyed, selfish right wing Tories in Parliament, to my mind is bordering on criminal.

I ask, How can you not know, but then our present N I Secretary of State didn't have a clue either, and had no idea that people voted on sectarian lines.

As an aside I grew up in Wales, and we had lots of Welsh history taught to us. We moved back to England for my Secondary schooling - Welsh history, our noble Princes? 'Wales was conquered.' - One line in the history book! Yup, that gives a clue as to English attitudes.

BackInTime Mon 15-Jul-19 09:26:30

@HateIsNotGood Perhaps you should take some time out to educate yourself and find out more about the troubles in NI. Your posts are ignorant in the extreme.

bellinisurge Mon 15-Jul-19 09:26:31

"Impression I get is that those from ROI want a united Ireland a bit more than NI? However, I have not lived or worked in either NI or ROI."
Here's my "impression " as someone with an Irish Mum and Irish family.
Peace and prosperity is what people want.
GFA gives it. It was so important to ROI that ROI had a referendum to change its constitution to cancel its territorial claim on NI. To make GFA work.
Ireland knows how to do referenda properly btw. Agree or disagree with the outcome it is a properly conducted democratic and legal process. Not impressionistic bollocks that fucks everything up.

Bercows Mon 15-Jul-19 09:30:16

@bellinisurge I didn't realise that. Fake obstacle indeed!

bellinisurge Mon 15-Jul-19 09:31:10

Do you have any idea why people in NI don't want a united Ireland? Do you know anything at all about NI.
And do you know how amazing it is that both communities voted Remain to be the majority outcome in the referendum there? Because they obviously did.

Bercows Mon 15-Jul-19 09:44:29

bellinisurge I'm googling more info but I'm not sure why the people of NI don't want a united Ireland so am more than happy to be told. In fact I'm off to the library later so might see if there's any books on the subject. I love learning about history. It's a shame we didn't cover this at school although I think I'd have been too distressed to learn it then with two brothers stationed there.

InTheHeatofLisbon Mon 15-Jul-19 09:46:45

Can't comment on Wales, but Scotland and Ireland seem to think they live in the shadow of England?

Seem to think?

Scotland voted to remain, the Indy ref was lost because of the tagline "its the only guaranteed way to remain in the EU", Scottish MPs are openly derided and mocked in Westminster, and have even been told to "go home" on more than one occasion by other MPs, and the Tory government response to a swell in support for Indy 2 is to conduct an investigation into whether the Scottish Government is working for Westminster.

We're consistently told that the UK is a country (it's not, it's a union of 4), yet only one of the 4 countries involved gets to make decisions, represent the UK on a global platform and have any influence on things.

Britain and England are used interchangeably to mean the same thing, god knows the NI border issue has shown the pig ignorance of many (who now wail that nobody told them which is bullshit), and frankly the only people actually wanting out of the EU are the English and the Welsh.

So you see, there is no "seem" about it. Patronising little comments about oilfields (which ARE Scottish btw) and fishing waters (nice little bargaining chip often thrown out there by Westminster) only serve to make it more clear that independence is needed.

You can take your nuclear weapons when we go too. The ones conveniently placed to avoid London in the event of a nuclear disaster.

Bercows Mon 15-Jul-19 09:50:24

A lot of England voted to leave, yes. But not all of us. Off the top of my head Manchester, Leeds, Bristol and London voted to remain. I hate being lumped into "the English" like that.

InTheHeatofLisbon Mon 15-Jul-19 09:50:58

Older persons seem to be more in favour remaining a member of the UK.

Evidence suggests that said older persons voted No in the Indy ref because they believed it would keep us in the EU.

Polls suggest the voters (mostly older) who did so would vote differently in the second referendum (which there is a caveat for in the event of "clear and significant changes" ie Brexit) because being part of the EU is most important to them.

Oh, and Westminster appears to be under the mistaken belief it can stop a second Indy ref. They can't, and they know it.

We could hold one tomorrow and there would be nothing they could do. If it were a definite yes, the EU have already stated they wouldn't block an independent Scotland joining the EU.

Since the majority of Scottish politicians (Tories and Mundell in particular aside) haven't insulted, been xenophobic about or indeed slated the EU, I'd say we're in a pretty strong position.

InTheHeatofLisbon Mon 15-Jul-19 09:52:09

I hate being lumped into "the English" like that.

The irony of that statement.

We've been lumped in for years! Two entire countries within the UK voted clearly to remain, yet have been told to sit down and shut up. Our votes don't matter.

Bercows Mon 15-Jul-19 09:54:30

They matter to me.

What would your solution be?

bellinisurge Mon 15-Jul-19 10:00:48

@Bercows , really? Don't you know what the Unionist community is?

InTheHeatofLisbon Mon 15-Jul-19 10:02:19

They matter to me.

Thank you. Fwiw I agree that "the English" isn't one hive mind and that many voted to remain.

Honestly? Until recently I'd have said I'd have given up any thought of independence in order to stop brexit and have the whole UK pulled back from the edge.

Now? With Hunt and Johnson being the future, I just want out. I want an independent Scotland to join the EU and go forward from there.

I'm busy telling all my English friends and family to move up here.

Because I genuinely don't see a solution any more, which can benefit the whole UK. This has brought previously slightly covered up contempt for Scotland and NI out of people and politicians in particular to the fore and they're not even trying to hide it any more. Scotland and NI are and always have been an afterthought, as evidenced by the apparent surprise of many that NI won't just sit down and do as it's told.

I want the divides healed, but how can they be? When the Brexit Party has a hell of a foothold all over England (but nowhere else) and two of the most divisive, out of touch, elite politicians in history decide the future?

Boris proposes a tax rise which will affect Scottish, Welsh and NIrish taxpayers, but only benefits English high rate taxpayers. When challenged on it he shrugged and laughed.

Sadly, and I do genuinely mean that, it's time for us all to go our own way to avoid being dragged down with a rapidly sinking ship.

For those with no option, I don't know, it's awful and unfair.

Bercows Mon 15-Jul-19 10:03:23

I'm obviously missing something so eager to learn.

bellinisurge Mon 15-Jul-19 10:08:29

@Bercows , please tell me you didn't vote Leave?

InTheHeatofLisbon Mon 15-Jul-19 10:09:17

Bercows unionists are traditionally Protestant and consider themselves to be British, hence unionists. They have enjoyed a society where the best jobs, wages, housing and opportunities are afforded to them because they are Protestant.

Nationalists (who want Ireland to be one nation) are traditionally Roman Catholic and consider themselves to be Irish. They have either lived through, or heard from family about the very recent past where they were not given the same civil rights as the Protestant Unionists (again housing, jobs, wages and opportunities) based purely on the fact that they are RC.

To be honest that's a very, very potted history which doesn't explain anything like all of it, but it's a start.

The divisions in NI were put there by the British government, the civil rights removal was solely the work of the British government, and the horrific abuses of nationalist communities (NOT terrorists, ordinary, regular RC people) by sections of the British army (the paras in particular) has caused untold suffering for many, many decades.

Unionists fear a united Ireland as they'd be a minority, and they've enjoyed dominance in daily life for generations.

bellinisurge Mon 15-Jul-19 10:10:58

I'm sorry to sound so brutal about your lack of knowledge on NI - there's plenty I don't know about on all sorts of things. But this is fecking crucial. It's the sole reason we haven't left yet. And to not understand it, at this stage, is pretty shocking to me.

Bercows Mon 15-Jul-19 10:13:58

bellinisurge no I didn't. I've name changed a bit but have been on the stockpiling threads and Westminsterenders threads for ages. It's thanks to you that I have my brexit stash as does my mum smile Formerly BercowsSilkTie and SparklySneakers but de-regged for a while as I got too stressed with it all. My ds is the one who goes round calling out "clear the lobby" and "the ayes/noes have it!" At the top of his voice grin Remainer through and through and the GFA is of the highest importance to me in all this.

InTheHeatofLisbon Mon 15-Jul-19 10:14:28

It's the sole reason we haven't left yet. And to not understand it, at this stage, is pretty shocking to me.

I have to say it is to me too.

The poster on page 1 who said they didn't remember it being mentioned before the referendum blew my mind. It was brought up countless times and dismissed as project fear, or ignored by prominent politicians (who presumably DID understand the finer nuances of why it would cause issues).

But Bercows seems to be genuinely asking so I gave a very potted history.

bellinisurge Mon 15-Jul-19 10:18:33

@Bercows @InTheHeatofLisbon has summarised it pretty well. All that they explained is behind the horrible violence of The Troubles. And GFA miraculously wonderfully ended it. And so we should, with ROI and the people of NI (And frankly, with help from the US and the EU) be bloody proud of ourselves that we pulled it off.
And Brexit fucks all that up because GFA is predicated on us both being members of the EU.
WA created a fudge to fix it. I was prepared to accept that.

InTheHeatofLisbon Mon 15-Jul-19 10:20:34

I should add that it's a very general post, it doesn't apply to everyone in NI and there will obviously be exceptions.

But in terms of "sides" generally it kind of explains the basics.

Google internment, Ballymurphy, 1 Para, Rossville Flats and it'll give you a better idea.

1tisILeClerc Mon 15-Jul-19 10:20:41

{I'm busy telling all my English friends and family to move up here. }
While it is admirable that you and Prettybird have this sentiment, have you thought through the realities of significant immigration?
In particular, does it have the wholehearted support of a more than significant majority of Scots and even more important that the Scottish Parliament are fully behind this, in both the will to make the necessary accommodation and the funds to do it?
It is largely the Westminster government's failings to properly manage immigration, not by the absolute numbers, but ensuring the funding and appropriate building to ensure that the influx does not impact to the detriment to the existing community. While diversity is good, there needs to be a commonality in at least functional language rather than 'incomers' expecting to have everything provided in their native language.

implantsandaDyson Mon 15-Jul-19 10:21:30

Remainer through and through and the GFA is of the highest importance to me in all this

but I'm not sure why the people of NI don't want a united Ireland

I find it very hard to fathom how those two statements came from the same brain to be honest. There's no way on this earth that someone who professes that the GFA is of importance to them can not fathom why a United Ireland is a complete anathema to some people in NI.

happyhillock Mon 15-Jul-19 10:22:49

I really couldn't give a toss what happen's in NI, my country is Scotland i care what happen's here.

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