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Man doing my pedicure

(280 Posts)
eyesbiggerthanstomach Tue 12-Mar-19 16:24:53

I'm having a rubbish day so maybe am being super sensitive but not sure. There is a nail bar I regularly go to. A few men work there but it's mainly women. Usually one of the women does my pedicure. I have had one or two of the men do it in the past too.

Anyway, am currently getting one done by a man and I'm feeling really uncomfortable. I can't explain why. Maybe because he is slow and so every touch feels like it's lasting ages but I'm not enjoying it.

Is it unreasonable to specify a woman does it in future?

Bluestitch Wed 13-Mar-19 16:33:48

Good, so do I.

So wanting explanations why was just for kicks then?

Biancadelrioisback Wed 13-Mar-19 16:39:28

I wouldn't refuse a man performing a smear on me. I don't agree with judging people based on sex. I can understand why some women are worried about men performing this, especially if they have been abused in the past. But again I don't agree with blaming all men.

Biancadelrioisback Wed 13-Mar-19 16:41:00

So wanting explanations why was just for kicks then?
No. I asked a question.

Biancadelrioisback Wed 13-Mar-19 16:41:42

You also think women who do hate all men
No I think women who hate men hate men.

PrettyBelle Wed 13-Mar-19 16:43:16

But again I don't agree with blaming all men.

For God's sake, this is not about blaming men.

Even yoga teachers ask the class if they are comfortable with the teacher touching them to correct their posture. It is nothing personal.

Biancadelrioisback Wed 13-Mar-19 16:43:29

As much as I enjoy repeating myself, I need to collect my son now.

NKFell Wed 13-Mar-19 16:44:10

2nd rule of misogyny- Women saying no to men is a hate crime <---THIS

YANBU to not want a man to touch your body, even your feet.

Fwiw I don't hate men, I have 3 sons and I'm bringing them up to know that it's perfectly fine for women to have boundaries.

GabsAlot Wed 13-Mar-19 16:44:24

hes prob jus crap at it rather than because hes a man

theres 2 men in the nail salon i go to wonder if its the same place

Biancadelrioisback Wed 13-Mar-19 16:44:34

For God's sake, this is not about blaming men.

It is when one poster suggests that we should blame men.

JessicaWakefieldSVH Wed 13-Mar-19 16:53:08

No I think women who hate men hate men.

No. You accused me of hating men because I think women should be able to request female only health or beauty care. At the same time as saying you agree women should have the right. You literally don’t make any sense.

No, I did not blame all men- I kept pointing out how silly your NAMALT is. We know that. But some of us take certain precautions because we can’t tell which men are like that and which aren’t. You are deliberately ignoring this being pointed out several times. You’ve called women who only want female doctors sexist. Ffs.

This is misogyny 101.

JessicaWakefieldSVH Wed 13-Mar-19 16:54:35

See, misogynists like to jump into conversations like this to accuse women of hating men if they don’t take the time to state ‘ some men’ or ‘ not all men’. It’s pathetic. We see you.

JessicaWakefieldSVH Wed 13-Mar-19 16:55:42

I don't hate men, I have 3 sons and I'm bringing them up to know that it's perfectly fine for women to have boundaries.

We need more mothers and fathers like you. Instead of the ones who teach their sons that they’re entitled to touch women, and women who say no are man haters.

BestZebbie Wed 13-Mar-19 16:57:39

Is the problem that they do a foot massage and you (possibly subconsciously) consider that to be foreplay when a man does it?

Otherwise (assuming you aren't doing the miniskirt/no knickers as mentioned above!) I can't see why it would really cross your mind. :-/

Bluestitch Wed 13-Mar-19 16:58:09

Urgh.

nokidshere Wed 13-Mar-19 17:03:33

What's the problem? You don't want a man doing it, that's your perogative, just ask for a female to do it. And if you don't want to ask then no one can help!

teyem Wed 13-Mar-19 17:05:21

Is that point at which some people think women acquire to right to bodily autonomy, when their genitals are on display?

Glowerglass Wed 13-Mar-19 17:06:01

I wouldn't be comfortable with that. I wouldn't complain but I wouldn't go back. Don't like men washing my hair either.

NKFell Wed 13-Mar-19 17:07:28

I thought the same teyem, women have to put up with men touching them unless their genitals are on display. If you have a problem with it, you're sexist. Ridiculous!

thedisorganisedmum Wed 13-Mar-19 17:19:25

and you wonder why some jobs are more "male" or "female' orientated than others...

It's absolutely shocking to accuse a medical professional to be some kind of pervert and refuse a smear test or other from a man. What exactly do you think is going to happen?

JessicaWakefieldSVH Wed 13-Mar-19 17:22:37

Ffs. The stupidity and victim blaming on this thread.

NOBODY IS ACCUSING ANYONE! It’s called consent. Boundaries. Personal preferences.

AhhhHereItGoes Wed 13-Mar-19 17:27:20

Manicure / hair cut etc no problem with a man doing it.

But massages I have only let one man not my partner massage me and he was a friend doing massage therapy and I was a case study.

Weetabixandshreddies Wed 13-Mar-19 17:27:26

and you wonder why some jobs are more "male" or "female' orientated than others...

Well exactly.

A thread on here the other day with an OP asking if it was unreasonable for the yr11 girls to be taken to a science event at uni while the boys stayed at school.

Many posters argued that it was to promote women in STEM careers and that the school should have taken boys to childcare settings, hospitals to look at nursing and midwifery as careers, to hair and make up colleges... Well it's quite obvious why boys don't go into those jobs judging by the views on here.

It isn't lawful to discriminate on the grounds of sex us it? So how are so many of you able to refuse a male nail technician without falling foul of the equality act?

teyem Wed 13-Mar-19 17:27:41

84% of violent crime is committed by men, 95% of sexual offences are committed by men. Even if you take out the concern they the individual man in front of you with speculum will harm you, you may not want that man heading towards you with your legs akimbo from previous trauma or you may just be aware of statistics or a cultural mandate that women not make themselves vulnerable to attacks by men or else it is considered their fault.

And any male speculum holding practitioner should be aware of that.

origamiunicorn Wed 13-Mar-19 17:27:48

It's absolutely shocking to accuse a medical professional to be some kind of pervert and refuse a smear test or other from a man.

No it's not. No woman has to accept a smear from a man let's make that clear.

Babycham1979 Wed 13-Mar-19 17:30:19

Posts like this always make me wonder how it's any different to insisting on the race of your beautician/doctor. If it's sufficient justification to claim 'it makes you feel uncomfortable', what's the difference? One kind of bigotry versus another?

Babycham1979 Wed 13-Mar-19 17:31:48

I can imagine all these arguments playing out about black people in apartheid South Africa; 'it makes me feel uncomfortable', 'they're more likely to be criminals', 'it's just my preference' etc etc

PrettyBelle Wed 13-Mar-19 17:33:05

Even if you take out the concern they the individual man in front of you with speculum will harm you, you may not want that man heading towards you with your legs akimbo from previous trauma or you may just be aware of statistics or a cultural mandate that women not make themselves vulnerable to attacks by men or else it is considered their fault.

Or maybe I just don't want to have my legs akimbo in front of a strange man. Regardless of his occupation. With no fears for safety. That would simply be embarrassing to me. Why is it so difficult to comprehend?

thedisorganisedmum Wed 13-Mar-19 17:33:23

84% of violent crime is committed by men, 95% of sexual offences are committed by men.

which is not quite the same as saying that 84% or 95% of men are violent and / or sexual offenders. hmm

BigChocFrenzy Wed 13-Mar-19 17:33:53

When one sex commit 98% of the sexual assaults, that's a reason some women are uncomfortable
That's not bigoted

Also, religion and its hangovers have a lot of rules about sex, rarely about race
So for some women it's about their religion

teyem Wed 13-Mar-19 17:34:16

Did I say that disorganised? Ffs

thedisorganisedmum Wed 13-Mar-19 17:34:36

I just don't want to have my legs akimbo in front of a strange man.

no one sane wants to have their legs akimbo in front of anyone, male or female!

teyem Wed 13-Mar-19 17:35:44

What a disingenuous point disorganised.

teyem Wed 13-Mar-19 17:36:39

I'm sure your comprehension skills afford you the capacity to consider my whole point...

BigChocFrenzy Wed 13-Mar-19 17:37:08

It's not just womeb who have preferences.

A colleague wouldn't visit his GP to have his testicular pain investigated, because she was a woman
I told him he could request one of the men GPs and noone would be offended
He did so

Bluestitch Wed 13-Mar-19 17:39:30

It's absolutely shocking to accuse a medical professional to be some kind of pervert and refuse a smear test or other from a man

You think it's shocking that a woman might request a female to carry out an intimate examination? I requested a female GP recently when I wanted a breast lump examined, is that shocking too, despite it being compatible with NHS policy?

PrettyBelle Wed 13-Mar-19 17:39:37

no one sane wants to have their legs akimbo in front of anyone, male or female!

Well, of course. But if I have to, for a medical procedure, I may prefer a woman. For the same reason why I want to use female changing rooms instead of undressing in front of men. Again, no explanation should be needed there.

JessicaWakefieldSVH Wed 13-Mar-19 17:39:44

It's not just women who have preferences

Definitely not. It is only women who will get other women calling them sexist hateful bigoted bitches though.

JessicaWakefieldSVH Wed 13-Mar-19 17:44:12

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.

2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.

5th rule of misogyny: WATM! Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.

6th rule of misogyny: Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment.

7th rule of misogyny: Women should always be grateful to men for everything.

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

9th rule of misogyny: Men always know the "real reasons" for everything women do and say.

10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it males men look bad.

11th rule of misogyny: Basic pattern recognition skills are cruel and evil when they hurt men's feelings.

12th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.

13th rule of misogyny: Women are not oppressed! Rape and catcalling and objectification are all compliments, not oppression.

14th rule of misogyny: Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.

Just a reminder. I’ve bolded the ones observed on this thread.

Bluestitch Wed 13-Mar-19 17:46:34

So how are so many of you able to refuse a male nail technician without falling foul of the equality act?

Well nobody can be compelled to accept treatment from someone so I guess the salon can tell the customer to get lost if they don't want to accommodate the request, and then the customer can take their business elsewhere if they wish.

LimeKiwi Wed 13-Mar-19 17:48:33

What @Biancadelrioisback said.

GreigLaidlawsbarofsoap Wed 13-Mar-19 23:42:41

It's absolutely shocking to accuse a medical professional to be some kind of pervert and refuse a smear test or other from a man

How stupid and insular can one woman be? hmm We have the right to determine who sticks instruments or fingers inside us ffs. We are not accusing them all of being "perverts" (even this word tells me all about your world view, such as it is) we have bodily autonomy and can decide to have a female do medical treatments for ANY reason we choose.
<and yes, women have been sexually assaulted by medical professionals, in case you didn't know confused>

CheerioHunter Wed 13-Mar-19 23:49:29

Is it unreasonable to specify a woman does it in future?

I know exactly what you mean.
I felt the same when I was having driving lessons and one week a female instructor turned up.
Like you, I was paying, I felt uncomfortable so just ask for who you want............. 🙄

//Sarcasm.

OccasionalKite Thu 14-Mar-19 00:19:32

OP, please do specify next time that you wish to be treated by a woman, not a man.

You don't need to explain anything. Just state the bare fact - that you wish to be treated by a woman, not a man. Anyone who asks "Why?" or argues about it, is unlikely to ever understand.

NKFell Thu 14-Mar-19 03:23:33

Anyone who asks "Why?" or argues about it, is unlikely to ever understand. so true @OccasionalKite and this thread is proof.

It’s always so disappointing to read women having zero regard for other women’s boundaries. Also implying hatred of men because of imposing boundaries. Makes me feel nauseous!

teyem Thu 14-Mar-19 06:45:45

*I know exactly what you mean.
I felt the same when I was having driving lessons and one week a female instructor turned up.
Like you, I was paying, I felt uncomfortable so just ask for who you want........*

This really isn't the educated gotcha that you think it is for all of the reasons that have been raised that you are unwilling or incapable of understanding.

Paddington68 Thu 14-Mar-19 07:03:09

If I'm in A and E I'll be giving no fcuk at all as to the gender of the doctor or nurses looking after me. If they can sort me out I don't care if it's a trained gorilla.
I don't care if a vicar is male or female, or the person who serves me in a shop.
If the OP prefers a lady or man to do her nails I think that's fair comment, it is up to her. I think she''s wrong but it is up to her.

JessicaWakefieldSVH Thu 14-Mar-19 07:23:17

CheerioHunter a driving instructor shouldn’t be touching you or giving you an internal exam. See the difference? What a stupid comment.

origamiunicorn Thu 14-Mar-19 07:40:03

It’s always so disappointing to read women having zero regard for other women’s boundaries. Also implying hatred of men because of imposing boundaries. Makes me feel nauseous!

Yep we are always blaming men yet we are part of the problem too.

Ghanagirl Thu 14-Mar-19 07:43:16

@Babycham1979
It’s not the same and your post makes me think your racist

CheerioHunter Thu 14-Mar-19 07:44:51

See the difference? What a stupid comment.

Oh yes, because it was a male touching her feet. The bloody intimidating sex pest doing his job. Grrrr

Ghanagirl Thu 14-Mar-19 09:42:24

@Biancadelrioisback
I also have a black son whose is older than yours and I abhor racism and agree that we do face a struggle as they get older BUT I still have the right to ask for a female to perform intimate examinations or a pedicure. I’m teaching him to respect others personal boundaries.

JessicaWakefieldSVH Thu 14-Mar-19 10:06:55

Cheerio, you’re just not quite able to keep up with this are you? Not wanting a man to touch you, is not an accusation. It’s a preference, or a precaution or a way of limiting anxiety due to past trauma. If you can’t understand that, you are being very dim.

Weetabixandshreddies Thu 14-Mar-19 13:09:59

Has anyone ever tested the EA over a matter like this?

I really can't believe that having a pedicure is one of the reasons for protected characteristics being exempted.

Surely if anyone feels strongly about this then they need to find a manicurist/ beautician that they are happy with a book direct?

Personally, I'm more concerned about the welfare of anyone having to work in these nail bars. A large number of whom are trafficked.

JessicaWakefieldSVH Thu 14-Mar-19 13:31:06

This is relevant to EA and sex discrimination. There is nothing in the law to prevent anyone from requesting a specific sex for services or care that requires touching a persons body. I would imagine most sensible people would realise it’s an infringement of someone’s bodily autonomy, and most would consider it reasonable for all the reasons outlined in this thread.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/sex-discrimination

Weetabixandshreddies Thu 14-Mar-19 13:56:39

This is called an occupational requirement. This includes some jobs which require someone of a particular sex for reasons of privacy and decency or where personal services are provided.

These are the grounds given by that link.

Would a pedicure really count as reasons of privacy or decency or a personal service?

youknowmedontyou Thu 14-Mar-19 14:07:56

Would a pedicure really count as reasons of privacy or decency or a personal service?

I would say not! It's a pedicure, not an internal examination, anything above the ankle can be covered.

JessicaWakefieldSVH Thu 14-Mar-19 14:19:30

Would a pedicure really count as reasons of privacy or decency or a personal service?

I think so, I believe Beaty treatments would come under that. The fact is, you’re being touched in an area that you don’t normally get touched by other people you don’t know. I honestly can’t imagine why anyone would want to force anyone to be touched by a male if they weren’t comfortable with it, either with intimate care or with what is supposed to be a relaxing service. Do you really want to go down the, well you can say no to be touched there but not here, route? I trained as a masseuse but haven’t practiced in many years. I would never question a client who came in and requested just males or just females to give them, say, reflexology. Nor refuse their custom. You never know what has lead to their discomfort.

Why not send an email to the equality commission if it’s peaked your interest.

Weetabixandshreddies Thu 14-Mar-19 14:28:03

I wouldn't insist anyone has to be touched. I just think it's quite shakey ground to advise that someone can refuse on the grounds of a protected characteristic, excepting the for intimate procedures etc.

I don't think anyone would advise refusing a pedicure based on race, religion or sexual orientation would they?

Would no one be concerned if someone refused to let a hairdresser cut their because she was female?

JessicaWakefieldSVH Thu 14-Mar-19 14:36:17

I don't think anyone would advise refusing a pedicure based on race, religion or sexual orientation would they?
I think that’s a false equivalency.

Bluestitch Thu 14-Mar-19 14:39:38

Has anyone ever tested the EA over a matter like this?

I've requested a female masseuse more than once. I'm not sure how the equality act would really be 'tested' anyway. If a customer's request was refused they'd presumably just go elsewhere.

Weetabixandshreddies Thu 14-Mar-19 15:14:30

I think that’s a false equivalency.

Why?

Weetabixandshreddies Thu 14-Mar-19 15:16:33

Bluestitch

A massage is different though isn't it? Surely that would come under exemptions for privacy, decency or a personal service because you are undressed.

Bluestitch Thu 14-Mar-19 15:23:42

Tbh it's never come up when I've been having other beauty treatments, it's always been women working there anyway. And when you have a regular salon you often book with a specific person. I'd refuse a man, it's as simple as that really.

Fowles94 Thu 14-Mar-19 15:42:06

If you don't want people to be sensitive maybe request one of the females by name. It's not unreasonable at all.

NKFell Thu 14-Mar-19 16:16:55

I don't feel comfortable with women's boundaries being compared to racism. I'm a black woman and already feel on the back foot for being a woman and being black. I don't think sexual orientation can be compared either and I think it's ridiculous to do so.

The car instructor comparison is also strange, there are plenty of driving schools who advertise as being a female instructor because some women would rather not go off in a car with a male stranger. Thankfully all the men in my life completely understand that.

Weetabixandshreddies Thu 14-Mar-19 17:17:41

The thing is though we have the EA which makes it illegal to discriminate on the grounds of protected characteristics except under certain conditions.

If you unofficially widen those you can't just do so on the basis of women's boundaries (unless the Act is changed). And of course sex can be compared to race, religion or sexual orientation. Would you accept someone refusing a person because they were black or gay, even if they thought they had very good reason for doing so?

Would it be ok the other way round? Could a woman refuse to give a pedicure to a man? By the way, I'm not talking about intimate treatments or procedures.

JessicaWakefieldSVH Thu 14-Mar-19 17:26:26

And of course sex can be compared to race, religion or sexual orientation.

No it can’t. Sex is an inherent biological difference. That’s why we have sex separated spaces- or do you think it’s discriminating for men and women not to undress in front of each other? It’s very normal and non-controversial in my life experience, for people to want health and beauty care involving physical touching, from the same sex as them.
I’ve never had an issue asking for a female to undertake beauty or massage treatments of any kind. Most people understand and respect it.

Bluestitch Thu 14-Mar-19 17:29:34

I'm pretty sure it isn't illegal for me to request a female beautician. I'm not going to be prosecuted for refusing to let a man give me a pedicure. The salon may have legal obligations as employers but I can discriminate over who touches me, my body isn't subject to equality law.

Weetabixandshreddies Thu 14-Mar-19 17:40:52

Surely skin colour is also a biological difference?

I totally get changing rooms etc or massages, and so does the EA.

I suppose I apply situations where I have been asked if I'm ok with a man treating me. I've never been asked by my dentist, podiatrist etc.

I don't know. I would be annoyed if a man did it to me so that's how I'm viewing it I guess

teyem Thu 14-Mar-19 17:44:30

I totally get changing rooms etc or massages, and so does the EA.

How can you 'get it' about changing rooms on the one hand and then argue from the position that conflates all difference under equality laws on the other?

NKFell Thu 14-Mar-19 18:03:21

Weetabix if you understand for changing rooms then you surely see why comparing race is invalid in this context?

JessicaWakefieldSVH Thu 14-Mar-19 18:03:25

I can discriminate over who touches me, my body isn't subject to equality law

As I understand it, that is true under current laws.

JessicaWakefieldSVH Thu 14-Mar-19 18:04:38

*Surely skin colour is also a biological difference?

Not comparable to sex differences. You sound like a TRA.

JessicaWakefieldSVH Thu 14-Mar-19 18:05:45

I would be annoyed if a man did it to me so that's how I'm viewing it I guess

Are you in an occupation where you touch people’s bodies for extended periods of time? I have been and I get it, and I was never offended.

waterlego Thu 14-Mar-19 19:35:38

When it comes to bodies and parts of bodies, it’s not for others to decide what sort of touch is intimate or personal and which isn’t. It is entirely the decision of the person whose body it is. I would be extremely uncomfortable with any stranger touching my feet because I find it intensely intimate. For that reason I probably would never have a pedicure at all and so the sex of the therapist would be irrelevant, but it is absolutely not unreasonable for anyone to decline a service involving physical touch from someone of the opposite sex (or the same sex for that matter, if that person has their own reasons for feeling uncomfortable about that).

waterlego Thu 14-Mar-19 19:37:57

And it doesn’t need to be explained, justified or apologised for.

Weetabixandshreddies Thu 14-Mar-19 23:15:47

Are you in an occupation where you touch people’s bodies for extended periods of time? I have been and I get it, and I was never offended.

I have been, yes. Nursing on a male urological ward - very intimate care including catheterising men. No one ever objected, although there were so few male nurses, and even fewer qualified to do what we did that I don't know what would have happened had a man objected.

And I'm not conflating protected characteristics. If it's ok to refuse someone on the basis of their sex, because you have a personal reason for doing so, why could you not have an equally personal reason for refusing on other grounds too?

I understand that, particularly as a customer, you have the choice over who touches you or not. No one is going to force you to have a pedicure against your will. I'm just wondering at the legal position if someone were to make their reasons clear.

itsbritneybiatches Thu 14-Mar-19 23:53:41

If I'm being touched then I respect the right to be touched by who I am comfortable with.
Male female, not sure, non defined.

Whatever they identify with - who cares. But if they are touching me, I respect the right to decline or accept that.

WhyTho Fri 15-Mar-19 01:24:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Crunchycrunchycrunchy Fri 15-Mar-19 07:23:38

that's fine but you need to tell them? You could've swapped with your OH?

I'm replying to this mega late but in this instance I couldn't, as he was called in about 10 mins before me, otherwise I would have

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