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To not understand the logic for transgender baptism

(108 Posts)
ReallyTired Sat 30-Jan-16 04:39:05

I don't understand why someone would want to be baptised twice, unless they see their first baptism as unsound. I know there are people who don't recongise infant baptism and are baptised by full immersion as an adult. Why would someone want to be re baptised because they have changed sex? They still have the same soul and are the same person.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-35441852

Surely there is one baptism for the remission of sins. The gender of that person is irrelevant. Baptism is not a naming ceremony, but a sacrement of the church. It's formally joining the church and surely you can only do that once. A transgender person can be baptised like anyone else, if they have not been baptised before.

I am in favour of a service of blessing for a transgender person, but theologically you can't be baptised twice.

Millionsmom Sat 30-Jan-16 04:46:14

I agree with you. Surely, you are who you always were so why repeat baptism as 'just' changing your sex doesn't change the you inside - your soul.

But I can see why they would think it necessary if they feel they weren't given a choice or felt they were being dishonest before God being baptised under their old names do sex. I'm not saying I think they are right, I think they are over thinking.
God loves you no matter what you are called and He knows you, but I think, if it makes you happier with yourself then where is the harm?

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight Sat 30-Jan-16 04:50:19

I guess people are missing the god bit and just thinking about the naming bit

Lucymatilde Sat 30-Jan-16 06:08:34

If it makes them feel better what does it matter? If there is a god I'm sure it understands their feelings and doesn't really give a toss

Iggi999 Sat 30-Jan-16 09:10:22

I can see why someone might want it but agree with others that baptism is meant to be a one-time thing. YOBO.
If someone lapses from their faith and then goes back, they can't be rebaptised, for example.

QueenLaBeefah Sat 30-Jan-16 09:12:15

Presumably they think God made a mistake? Or they are massive attention seekers.

PurpleDaisies Sat 30-Jan-16 09:13:59

Is a "transgender" baptism a second baptism? It doesn't say the child had been baptised before in that article.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel Sat 30-Jan-16 09:15:06

The article doesn't mention a second baptism - unless I am misreading it is about a church baptising a transgender child.

RubyRoseViolet Sat 30-Jan-16 09:15:55

Really?! I can understand it completely. I should imagine that experience of coming out as transgender and beginning that process feels very much like a rebirth hence the desire to be baptised again.

hedgehogsdontbite Sat 30-Jan-16 09:19:42

Maybe insisting God made a mistake needs a special act of forgiveness.

Primaryteach87 Sat 30-Jan-16 09:22:22

I think there are two issues, the need on a deep spiritual level for a transgender person to feel recognised as themselves and the actual baptism. I would do a re-affirmation of baptismal vows.

SoupDragon Sat 30-Jan-16 09:23:14

Presumably because they don't recognise their infant baptism. Maybe because they were baptised as the gender and with the name they do not believe they are. Not that hard to understand really.

ReallyTired Sat 30-Jan-16 10:31:10

Any child (or adult) who has never been baptised has the right to be baptised. (At least in the Church of England) A parish priest cannot refuse to baptise someone who lives in th parish. It doesn't matter if they are transgender etc. The baptism service is the same for both sexes, so gender is really irrelevant.

Re affirmation of baptism vows would be reasonable. Blessing someone in their new life as a man/woman would be appriopiate.
If someone wants a party which is blessed by the church then that is fine.

Baptism is rebirth into a life with Christ who accepts us for who we are. God knows our true gender even if the trans person's family didn't know.

If a trans child is being baptised for the first time, then it's not particularly newsworthy. What I don't understand is why someone would see the need for a new baptism. (If they are Christian and see infant/child baptism as valid)

Vaginaaa Sat 30-Jan-16 11:02:51

Why does anyone do or see the need for any religious ritual? Presumably they do it because it means something to them and makes them feel closer to god or whatever. Or just because they want to.

Iggi999 Sat 30-Jan-16 11:07:27

This religious ritual is a two way commitment though. I suspect most people don't fully understand what baptism is about, and no reason why they should.

EdithWeston Sat 30-Jan-16 11:12:46

Actually, in CofE it is up to the PPs whether they baptise or not. Because it's a wholly church matter (unlike marriage which is both church and state, and which has to be performed).

The Church however urges priests to perform it for all comers, and by and large it happens, though many will insist on a pre-baptism course. It's rare in practice to be turned down, but there is no right to it in the same way as marriage.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 30-Jan-16 11:19:36

Yanbu

I am rapidly losing the will to give a shit about this issue. I am sick of hearing about it, sick of women's rights being run roughshod over for a subcategory of men (transmen don't seem to demand half as much as transwomen, interestingly).

Lucymatilde Sat 30-Jan-16 11:41:14

Live and let live. Who cares? If there were an omnipresent, all-seeing, all-knowing god it wouldn't go in for ritual and mumbo-jumbo like baptism. Utterly absurd.

Lucymatilde Sat 30-Jan-16 11:43:56

And it wouldn't have created transgender people and let them suffer, or be pains in the arse depending on your own perspective. Oh no, sorry I forgot about the mysterious ways.

BeyondBootcampsAgain Sat 30-Jan-16 11:46:19

Patriarchal religion panders to misogenistic interpretation of sex roles. I'm not seeing why this is news? grin

IamTheWhoreofBabylon Sat 30-Jan-16 11:50:39

You cannot change your sex as stated above
It is impossible
Some cosmetic and hormonal changes can be made and surgery can make a person look more like what they believe of their desired sex should look like but they cannot change sex

MrsGentlyBenevolent Sat 30-Jan-16 12:00:36

Oh look,another trans-bashing thread, not understanding 'why' people who are changing gender are allowed to do x, y and z. How does it affect anyone if they are happier if they are baptised one, twice or 358 times? It obviously has meaning to them, being baptised as the 'right person'. The Christian God hasn't come down and expressed his feelings on any this or any farcical ceremony within the church,so shall we just presume it doesn't matter?

IamTheWhoreofBabylon, quite done being pedantic? That wasn't even the topic of conversation.

PurpleDaisies Sat 30-Jan-16 12:07:16

This isn't a teams bashing thread. The official Church of England position is that if you have been baptised once you can't be baptised again. You can renew your baptismal vows but not be baptised. It doesn't matter at all whether you're trans or not-vicars are perfectly entitled to refuse to baptise people twice based on scripture.

MrsGentlyBenevolent Sat 30-Jan-16 12:12:40

This isn't about the CoE though, and this church is offering second baptisms to trans people.

A lot of the scripture is irrelevant in today's world. Of course, people do like to trot it out when it fits to their prejudice.

IPityThePontipines Sat 30-Jan-16 12:19:20

I'm a bit tired of reading about threads of outrage on Mumsnet everytime a trans person does anything, ever.

We get it, a big chunk of you on here don't like trans people and like to pick over that dislike at any given opportunity. I just wish MN would give you your own section so the rest of us could hide it and didn't have to see your hatred of a protected group/super important activism.

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