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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not understand the logic for transgender baptism

107 replies

ReallyTired · 30/01/2016 04:39

I don't understand why someone would want to be baptised twice, unless they see their first baptism as unsound. I know there are people who don't recongise infant baptism and are baptised by full immersion as an adult. Why would someone want to be re baptised because they have changed sex? They still have the same soul and are the same person.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-35441852

Surely there is one baptism for the remission of sins. The gender of that person is irrelevant. Baptism is not a naming ceremony, but a sacrement of the church. It's formally joining the church and surely you can only do that once. A transgender person can be baptised like anyone else, if they have not been baptised before.

I am in favour of a service of blessing for a transgender person, but theologically you can't be baptised twice.

OP posts:
Millionsmom · 30/01/2016 04:46

I agree with you. Surely, you are who you always were so why repeat baptism as 'just' changing your sex doesn't change the you inside - your soul.

But I can see why they would think it necessary if they feel they weren't given a choice or felt they were being dishonest before God being baptised under their old names do sex. I'm not saying I think they are right, I think they are over thinking.
God loves you no matter what you are called and He knows you, but I think, if it makes you happier with yourself then where is the harm?

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 30/01/2016 04:50

I guess people are missing the god bit and just thinking about the naming bit

Lucymatilde · 30/01/2016 06:08

If it makes them feel better what does it matter? If there is a god I'm sure it understands their feelings and doesn't really give a toss

Iggi999 · 30/01/2016 09:10

I can see why someone might want it but agree with others that baptism is meant to be a one-time thing. YOBO.
If someone lapses from their faith and then goes back, they can't be rebaptised, for example.

QueenLaBeefah · 30/01/2016 09:12

Presumably they think God made a mistake? Or they are massive attention seekers.

PurpleDaisies · 30/01/2016 09:13

Is a "transgender" baptism a second baptism? It doesn't say the child had been baptised before in that article.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 30/01/2016 09:15

The article doesn't mention a second baptism - unless I am misreading it is about a church baptising a transgender child.

RubyRoseViolet · 30/01/2016 09:15

Really?! I can understand it completely. I should imagine that experience of coming out as transgender and beginning that process feels very much like a rebirth hence the desire to be baptised again.

hedgehogsdontbite · 30/01/2016 09:19

Maybe insisting God made a mistake needs a special act of forgiveness.

Primaryteach87 · 30/01/2016 09:22

I think there are two issues, the need on a deep spiritual level for a transgender person to feel recognised as themselves and the actual baptism. I would do a re-affirmation of baptismal vows.

SoupDragon · 30/01/2016 09:23

Presumably because they don't recognise their infant baptism. Maybe because they were baptised as the gender and with the name they do not believe they are. Not that hard to understand really.

Original poster
ReallyTired · 30/01/2016 10:31

Any child (or adult) who has never been baptised has the right to be baptised. (At least in the Church of England) A parish priest cannot refuse to baptise someone who lives in th parish. It doesn't matter if they are transgender etc. The baptism service is the same for both sexes, so gender is really irrelevant.

Re affirmation of baptism vows would be reasonable. Blessing someone in their new life as a man/woman would be appriopiate.
If someone wants a party which is blessed by the church then that is fine.

Baptism is rebirth into a life with Christ who accepts us for who we are. God knows our true gender even if the trans person's family didn't know.

If a trans child is being baptised for the first time, then it's not particularly newsworthy. What I don't understand is why someone would see the need for a new baptism. (If they are Christian and see infant/child baptism as valid)

OP posts:
Vaginaaa · 30/01/2016 11:02

Why does anyone do or see the need for any religious ritual? Presumably they do it because it means something to them and makes them feel closer to god or whatever. Or just because they want to.

Iggi999 · 30/01/2016 11:07

This religious ritual is a two way commitment though. I suspect most people don't fully understand what baptism is about, and no reason why they should.

EdithWeston · 30/01/2016 11:12

Actually, in CofE it is up to the PPs whether they baptise or not. Because it's a wholly church matter (unlike marriage which is both church and state, and which has to be performed).

The Church however urges priests to perform it for all comers, and by and large it happens, though many will insist on a pre-baptism course. It's rare in practice to be turned down, but there is no right to it in the same way as marriage.

Alisvolatpropiis · 30/01/2016 11:19

Yanbu

I am rapidly losing the will to give a shit about this issue. I am sick of hearing about it, sick of women's rights being run roughshod over for a subcategory of men (transmen don't seem to demand half as much as transwomen, interestingly).

Lucymatilde · 30/01/2016 11:41

Live and let live. Who cares? If there were an omnipresent, all-seeing, all-knowing god it wouldn't go in for ritual and mumbo-jumbo like baptism. Utterly absurd.

Lucymatilde · 30/01/2016 11:43

And it wouldn't have created transgender people and let them suffer, or be pains in the arse depending on your own perspective. Oh no, sorry I forgot about the mysterious ways.

BeyondBootcampsAgain · 30/01/2016 11:46

Patriarchal religion panders to misogenistic interpretation of sex roles. I'm not seeing why this is news? Grin

IamTheWhoreofBabylon · 30/01/2016 11:50

You cannot change your sex as stated above
It is impossible
Some cosmetic and hormonal changes can be made and surgery can make a person look more like what they believe of their desired sex should look like but they cannot change sex

MrsGentlyBenevolent · 30/01/2016 12:00

Oh look,another trans-bashing thread, not understanding 'why' people who are changing gender are allowed to do x, y and z. How does it affect anyone if they are happier if they are baptised one, twice or 358 times? It obviously has meaning to them, being baptised as the 'right person'. The Christian God hasn't come down and expressed his feelings on any this or any farcical ceremony within the church,so shall we just presume it doesn't matter?

IamTheWhoreofBabylon, quite done being pedantic? That wasn't even the topic of conversation.

PurpleDaisies · 30/01/2016 12:07

This isn't a teams bashing thread. The official Church of England position is that if you have been baptised once you can't be baptised again. You can renew your baptismal vows but not be baptised. It doesn't matter at all whether you're trans or not-vicars are perfectly entitled to refuse to baptise people twice based on scripture.

MrsGentlyBenevolent · 30/01/2016 12:12

This isn't about the CoE though, and this church is offering second baptisms to trans people.

A lot of the scripture is irrelevant in today's world. Of course, people do like to trot it out when it fits to their prejudice.

IPityThePontipines · 30/01/2016 12:19

I'm a bit tired of reading about threads of outrage on Mumsnet everytime a trans person does anything, ever.

We get it, a big chunk of you on here don't like trans people and like to pick over that dislike at any given opportunity. I just wish MN would give you your own section so the rest of us could hide it and didn't have to see your hatred of a protected group/super important activism.

MrsGentlyBenevolent · 30/01/2016 12:26

IPityThePontipines, but don't you know? All trans people are actually just men in skirts, trying to invade female space. No other reason. What feminist say is right, women's rights trump all. How dare these people try and change their gender to comform to the 'patriarchy', then dare to have a baptism of their choice instead of sticking to the one they had no idea about as a baby.

I totally agree, there should be another forum on here for everyone who has issues with transgenderism. They can all pat each other on the back for being 'real women', and AIBU can be kept for hating MILs and People Who Dare Park in Parents and Children Spots.