Leaving work on time to pick up son - can employer moan about this?

[RaspberrysAllRound]

Hello

I will be returning to work after 12 months maternity leave in August. My employer refused a request for flexible working and preferred me to work 5 days rather than compressing my hours and working 4 long days. Which I am totally ok with - that's their choice.

Working 4 days would have given me a some flexibility on start time/finish time, days off, covering in an emergency etc (long story but husband would also have been able to work 4 days if I did) but working 5 days will mean my childcare arrangements are much less flexible as my son will be at nursery 5 days a week and I will have to drop him off and collect him most days. Which means I will not get down to work much before 8:30 and will have to stop pretty much on the dot at 5pm. My contracted hours are 9 to 5 and I work from home mostly so in theory this shouldn't be a big problem.

So, here's the issue. My manager has already told me that he would not expect my working hours to be constrained in any way. So if I can't make a meeting organised at 5:30pm or 8am because I am dropping my son off at nursery he will be peed off and will complete my appraisal accordingly (this is pretty much what he said word for word).

My view is that if something really business critical comes up outside of my contracted hours and I have reasonable advance warning I would do my best to get someone to drop off or collect my son for nursery for me, but this might not always be possible. My expectation would be that this is required exceptionally rather than routinely though and my employer should respect that I need to care for my child outside working hours. I am a hard worker and imagine I will be on my laptop working most evenings when my son is in bed.

I will work as flexibly as I can but I am constrained by childcare arrangements, as most working mums and dads are, including colleagues of mine.

Is it reasonable of an employer to say they will penalise you (poor appraisal, reduced bonus) if you have to leave work on time to pick up a child most days?

You sound committed and flexible as far as you are able to be, which I think is reasonable.

What does your contract say about working hours? I understand it says 9-5 are your contracted hours but in many businesses 'contracted hours' are pretty meaningless and something just to put in a contract, not something that actually happens.

Does your contract say anything about being expected to work the hours necessary to do your job or some kind of get-out like that?

With flowery on this on. As an employee you can't refuse a reasonable request for overtime.

Personally I reckon reasonable in this sense is an hour or so once a month or less often.

My contract says 9 to 5 and then a clause further into it says "whatever additional hours may be required from time to time...".

For me the inclusion of 'time to time' suggests it's not expected to be the norm that I work every hour there is. I certainly tried not to work excessive hours every day before my maternity leave.

I am more than happy to do my bit and am committed to my job so am a bit shocked to be told that if I attempt to leave on time and start on time every day and unless I work every hour there is, I will get a poor appraisal.

Lots of people have an arrangement whereby the father drops off the child on the way to work, and the mother catches an early train in (before nursery), meaning she can make it back before nursery closes. Or vice versa. Any chance this could work for you?

And I hate the practice of organising meetings at 5:30pm, especially on a Friday! I once worked in a firm where this was the norm, and the company owner used the time to swear like a b*stard at everyone, too! (no wonder I think late meetings are so uncivilised....)

but the OP will be doing overtime, just not 'arranged' overtime (i.e. meetings) she can work from home

If you are given notice of the meetings can you shift the nursery hours on those days?

In other words, they are not willing to be flexible, but expecting you to be . Well, it cuts both ways, and while the last thing a manager wants to hear is the dreaded 'childcare' issue, at the same time, they cannot expect you to work constantly outside your contracted hours.

Think you really need to nip this one in the bud and discuss with HR your options. It's a bit silly that you are being threatened with a poor appraisal for not working outside your contracted hours, and think this manager gets nil points for his managerial skills.

What he should have said is something along the lines that if there is a meeting outside working hours, then it will be scheduled well in advance so you have time to plan, and they will help/support this.

It doesn't sound like he really values you, or wants you working for him. I would be looking for another job.

People waste so much time in the office anyway, and a really focussed employee with a deadline can Do A Lot (more than childless Facebookers, for instance!)

And quite right, ilovemydogandMrObama!

Your manager sounds like a pig. Unfortunately, he is still your manager, so on that basis...

I'd consider him as a potential enemy, and start acting accordingly. Document everything he says to you (start with "If you don't work overtime I'll mark you down"). If he asks you to work late at short notice and you can't do it, put in writing when he asked you, why you can't do it and what happened when you said no. Also record all the times when he asks you and you're able to do so.

I appreciate this might be an almighty pain. But if you get to your appraisal and he carries out his threat to assess you poorly, you need all the ammunition you can to ensure you can defend yourself. His behaviour could be considered as sexual discrimination (since women generally have the burden of childcare and he is therefore imposing conditions on your working which are likely to be discriminatory towards women). In the very worst case, it could, possibly, be considered as constructive dismissal.

Hopefully it will all be fine and you won't ever need to use it. But if you do need it, you'll have it.

And if he really is going to behave like this on an ongoing basis, then personally, I'd also start looking for another job. You absolutely shouldn't have to, and it's disgusting that he's putting you in this position; but on this occasion, it might be easier to be happy than right.

I hope it all works out for you.

OMG he sounds like a right one! Do employers BY LAW not have to at least consider some sort of flexible working arrangements if necessary? You said in your OP that you'll be getting there at 8.30am and leaving at 5pm; if you are contracted to work 9-5 you are already working above your c ontracted hours. Or have i misunderstood?

I'm with Outrageous on this one.
It sounds to me like he doesn't think you can realistically do a fixed 9-5 and he wants to make sure you have a back up plan/flexible childcare arrangements.

If you're highly paid and in a professional/client facing job, then 9-5 may be pretty impossible to keep to. If you're working full time you really need to share drop offs/pick ups with your dh, otherwise it all falls on you and that is too much.

If you are working in a shop/paid hourly then you can be definite with your hours, but i don't know anyone who manages this all of the time in a professional job. (if anyone has one, please let me know!!)

maybe a childminder/nanny share (where your children go to the other house as you wfh) would be better to give you a little more flexibility?

Good luck (and your boss sounds like a twat, but at least an up-front one)

Your manager may be treading on dangerous territory if he downgrades you on your appraisal because of your childcare commitments. It could, depending on the circumstances, amount to indirect sex discrimination (on the basis that the 'detriment' (ie poor appraisal) is due to your childcare commitments (and it is generally accepted in Tribunals that more women than men have childcare commitments and therefore to discriminate on the basis of chilcare commitments indirectly discriminates against women)). So at Outrageous says, document everything just in case. At the same time just try your best and to be reasonable, and hopefully your boss will follow suit - a Tribunal claim is far from the ideal outcome. Good luck.

Me too, outrageous, I totally agree on this and if it ever came to a grievance issue or even constructive dismissal case, all emails, all phone calls and the such will be useful to have.

Can I ask why they declined your flexible working? Are you that depended on for your firm that you are indisposable? I don't mean to sound patronising but companies really need a solid excuse for turning down flexible working hours and "needs of the business" are certainly not enough if not bullet pointed....

In terms, of the appraisal, they could certainly say that they would but this seems like a bullying tactic to me. Even if they were to add something to that effect in your appraisal, you always have the opportunity to say the same to them, as I did upon my return to work (along the lines of the fact I had been overlooked for promotion as I was now a mother)at least then, I had it written down on paper!

keep everything, no matter how small. You never know when you will need it.

Hello everyone, thanks for the feedback! I'll try and respond to all of your questions.

My manager is a bit of a pig as you all rightly spotted but I am trying my best to be cooperative and flexible because he won't hesitate to use the 'bad attitude' card otherwise.

My husband will definitely be doing some of the picking up/dropping off, but I can't guarantee that he will be able to do it every day as he works fairly irregular hours.

If I am given proper notice, I am sure that 90% of the time I will be able to be flexible, but just not all of the time so I want to be open with my employer about this, so we all have reasonable expectations.

I will definitely take the advice to document things because I think he will be true to his word and will give me a poor appraisal, even if it's just one meeting I can't make.

Kingbeat, they declined my application because they want somebody available 5 days a week - and me being at work 4 days a week doesn't suit them (even though they managed for 12 months of my maternity leave without hiring any additional maternity cover for me). The truth is that it's an american company and they just don't encourage flexible working, they only want flexible working in their favour (working all the hours there are in the day, every day). But that's the culture so I have to accept that. I will be keeping my eyes open for a new job but it's not that easy at the moment.

I think though Raspberries, as Kingbeat said if they turn down any request for flexible working, they have to give a detailed reason why. Just saying 'operational reasons prevent 4 day working' or other such vague reasons are, to my understanding, insufficient. Whether it's the company's culture or not, it is the law!!

Hope things end up being easier than you are expecting.

I would say that your boss is being pretty unreasonable to be honest. He has already turned down your request to work four days a week, which may well be fair enough, but as you seem to have reasonably accepted this he should be willing to show a similar amount of flexibility. The fact is your situation has changed and you should be supported where possible, not penalised.

Julie