Working full time with three DC's = crazy? (Responses from academics esp welcome.)

[dontrunwithscissors]

DD1 is 3 yr, 3m, DD2 is 5 months. Despite suffering horrible PND with both children, I am so ridiculously broody for one more. However, both DH and I work full time. Both sets of parents are 250 miles away and in their 70's. I keep telling myself that another child would push us over the edge into utter chaos, and finish my career off once and for all. Or would it? Can this be done without me absolutely losing my mind and my job? Any practical tips on how to make it do-able? In particular, I'm wondering if a slightly larger age gap (2 yr, 9m between the DD's) would make it easier to cope?

As a bit of background: I'm an academic, DH works in engineering/oil industry. My job requires me to travel to the US for at least 2 weeks per year in order to do my research + I also need to attend conferences. I'm wondering if this aspect of my work would be too much with three DC's.

Hello! No real answers here but really interested to see the responses. I have two children, the youngest one is brand new. I would love another, but I also think I may consequently kiss goodbye to my nascent career. I am an early stage academic, currently doing a postdoc, but I am not that 'young' (37). Part of my problem would be timing - I would need to have another one relatively soon, which would cause real problems with getting a job (essentially applying whilst pregnant, not good, or getting pregnant if and when I got a job) and possibly necessitate some time out. In asking myself the same question, I find myself constantly asking whether my career is more important to me than extending my family - ie I seem to assume that there will be a choice to be made if I have another one, and that the compromise might be that I have a job rather than a career.

Anyway, from looking at friends and family, I think that holding down a full-time career and having three is significantly more difficult than two and certainly quite exhausting. It's much easier of course if you earn a lot and can afford a nanny for example, or something similar. My sister's experience with three would suggest that it might be slightly easier if you leave a bigger gap (in her case three years) between the last two. But I would say that having three has certainly had a negative effect on her career. Not sure if it's temporary or not - she's a journalist. Her's are 8, 6 and 3 now. I hate to say this, but now that her oldest two are at school, it is probably harder, as not only is there the after school issue, but also SO much homework to supervise, and after school activities to co-ordinate etc etc. And with three of different ages, there's different pick-ups and schedules too. Having said that, they have a lovely, noisy, big family life which I envy.

Also, this shouldn't matter, but I think that people are far less sympathetic about childcare difficulties if you have more than two. I think that two is considered 'normal', almost a right, but with three the perception is that you have chosen to make your own life difficult and should suffer the consequences. Of course, this seems to only apply to mothers not fathers!

Sorry, a bit of a ramble, but this struck a chord with me as I am pondering the very same thing!

I have 3 and had an academic career. The third really tips the balance. It's very difficult, very limiting, for all the reasons in Mystro's post above. Having said that, I recently had a kind of career change and piling even more work pressure on myself. DH is having to give up work and we're having to relocate in the next 6 months or so. Childcare for 3 is very expensive and the logistics are too difficult to handle otherwise. Mine are 10, 5 and nearly 3.

Congratulations on the new baby, mysto.

I'm desparately trying to convince myself it would be fine with 3 DC's, but I'm afraid the reality may be - as you say - a choice between a career and a third child. I also agree that I will probably be judged negatively for having another. There are currently only 3 other academic Mums in my School (made up of 5 departments.) I was the first to have a baby just over three years ago, and I'm the only one to have had a second, so far. I suspect that having a third would make me stick out like a sore thumb! On the other hand, I'm fortunate to have been in a permanent position for 6 years and have a bit of time on my side (I'm 34.) I figure if I left 4 years before having the next one, my two DD's would be at school before I was due back at work (thereby helping with the cost of childcare.) What's really sticking in my mind is how I would ever get any research done. I think it will be hard enough on DH looking after two children on his own for a couple of weeks, but three might have him rocking in the corner by the time I get back. I also have big plans to take the DC's to the States with me on research trips once they're old enough, and it would be very difficult/expensive to do that with three.

I know some academics who have thrown everything in to their career. They have published loads, but have lost everything else in their life as a result. I decided a long time ago that an academic career just wasn't that important to me. I wanted a family and a life outside of work, and I accepted that would mean I would never be a research 'star.' I never really contemplated, however, that having the family I wanted might mean me losing my career entirely. (Big threats of teaching-only contracts/redundancy for those who are under-performing in their research where I am.) It's probably a good wake up call to hear how hard it is with three as I have to make a decision based on reality, rather than my wishful thinking.

PS. I'd be really grateful to hear from anyone else (academics or not), who have had three children and the impact it had upon their working lives.

Sorry, that should have been Mystro.

Hi Don'trun. I'm the same, I try and convince myself that it would be OK, and I think that for some people it really is.

For me, I'm not very established yet, so I don't really know how sparkling my career might be with two children let alone three! I'm having a bad day today as I had a paper rejected (ouch!) and have just done a conference call with an organisation where I found myself incapable of talking sense! So one of my fears (which gets worse on a day like this!) is that I will stick with two children but not succeed anyway, and wish that I had stuffed the career and had three!

Anyway, I'm so sorry to hijack your thread, but it's comforting to see that someone else is having a similar-ish dilemma. Hope that other more enlightening people come along soon!

La la la

I bloody hope so!

35 weeks pregnant with DC3. Academic. Little family support. Work full time.

Ahem.

Actually I think academia might be one of the careers where you can make this work due to the flexibility (if you are in the right dept). If you are teaching heavy I would worry more than if you are research based. I might complain a lot about having a stupidly high workload but at least I can usually leave by 3.30 / 4 to pick the DC's up and then work at night. Quiet period in the summer ties in with school holiays as does Christmas and Easter.

Quite a few people in my work have got themselves contracts where they have all school holidays off (80% or something) and lots of people leave by 3 - its very very quiet in our department by half two most days!

I am lucky to work in a very family friendly department and school though - possibly through the research I do. I bet people in physics / engineering / hard science struggle more.

Just a head count in my department alone (which is very small and all female at the moment).

2 x 4 DC's (!)
6 x 3 DC's
4 x 2 DC's
1 x 1 DC
1 x 0 DC (but only 26)

In the other two departments I am involved in I think in one everyone had children but they are older. In the other I would say 60% of children. I am not sure about the other areas but still lots - non DC's are actually in the minority but this is a definite swing in the last few years.

One of our male PhD students who does some teaching has 5 DC's which he sometimes brings in - is chaotic

I used to work with someone who is still in academia who was working full time, commuting for an hour and had a 7, 5, 3 and 1 year old.

That's a nice setup, Peppa. Do you get to do much stuff, though, if you're late in and early out? I found in one of my old jobs that working at night etc was not quite enough, you had to be seen to be working and presenteeism was still encouraged. Just thinking back of who moved up in their career.

Before I start, I just wanted to make clear that I wasn't suggesting that I could have been a research 'star' - my research is a bag of cr@p at the moment - just that I decided it wasn't the most important thing to me to try to be one. Hope that's clear!

Peppapig - you've given me hope! Perhaps it's much more to do with the department you're in than anything else. (I was the first academic to ever take maternity leave in the 100+ year history of my department, and possibly in the entire School of 5 departments.) When I told a colleague I was expecting DC2, he just looked very puzzled and said 'but why, why would you do that?' Anyway, if you don't mind me asking a question: I also rely on working on an evening, but I've assumed that once the DC's get older (ie school age), I won't be able to do that. Both DD's are asleep by 7pm, 7.30 at the latest. How much time do you get to work on an evening (and do you manage to get any sleep!)?

Hmm, still can't see how I'd get around the whole needing-to-be-away-for-weeks-on-end thing.

Cristina - I'm not in late, I am in by 7.45 every morning . So I then do around 7 hours most days as don't take a lunch break and then another two hours in the evening and perhaps three to four hours a day on weekends. So I get stuff done just dont have a life (see other thread I started a while back on here!). Our school doesnt really do presenteeism as long as the work gets done.

Other staff members do less hours but are on teaching only contracts and are most likely going to find it harder to progress.

dontrun Both DC's are in bed by 7pm. I typically work from 7.30 til 10.30 but with breaks to do stuff. I don't sleep much

The needing to be away bit is the difficult bit and I am flumoxed by at the moment. If you need to do it for research then it is more of an issue. If it just conferences I find that if you publish enough or pull enough money in no one seems to notice?!

A big part of this is down to departments though. Maybe time to swap subject area . My area is pregnancy / birth / motherhood so tends to be family friendly by nature . I worked somewhere else very briefly that enforced a 9 - 5 at desk type thing. Did not work

Currently I am in work typing this (ahem). There is myself and one other academic staff member here.

I've been broody for a third since no.2 came along 20 months ago, but have decided to ignore my heart and go with my head. No more babies for us. All the reasons listed on this thread and then some! There is no way my career would survive in tact. It would take an utter bashing. I'm not an academic but do work in education.

And I do worry about money, space, relationship with other children, relationship with DH - everything, really, that would come with a third.

I confessed my mixed feelings to my mum the other day and she totally freaked out and begged me not to have another (she is not usually a crazy, begging lady).

I'm not an academic, but I do work (almost) full time and have three children (7, 7 and 5). I went back to work 3 days a week after maternity leave with my twins, but lost my management responsibilities and took a pay cut (my choice - I'd waited 5 years to have children and didn't want to put them in full-time childcare). My salary then covered childcare for two, but when my third child came along slightly unexpectedly, childcare would have outweighed my salary by a considerable amount. I became a SAHM for 5 years, but worked freelance in my industry for the last 2.5 years, once my youngest went to playgroup and nursery part of the time. I'm now back at work full-time, working for a different company in a different sector of my industry, loving the job but earning less than I did 10 years ago and working with lots of childless people who are astonished to learn that I have three children.

I'm not an academic but i do have three children and work full time. I actually had 6 years between dd2 and dd3 and I thought my career was well established enough for the baby not to make any difference. I was wrong - events whilst i was on maternity leave and just back from leave put me back by at least two years and currently I would estimate i'm at least £6-8000 pa down on the salary of the man who took the job i was doing prior to mat leave.....don't ask - VERY long story.
BUT - it's perfectly possible to work with three dcs, they are all marvellous and I feel complete in a way I wouldn't have if i'd only had two. I'll get back the career ground too - and actually the whole horrible affair made me leave that job and move to a much better area of work. The career thing you can always sort out - you've 20 or 30 years to do that. you don't have that time to have another dc - so if not having one breaks your heart then go for it. Sadly you can't do so expecting nothing to change at work though because it will.

Presenteeism certainly isn't an issue in my department. I was in work briefly last week, and I was the only person in. (I'm on mat leave!)

Peppapig I remember reading your thread where getting away to conferences was discussed. My research is 100% dependent upon me travelling to the US. I've only been once since DD1 was born 3 years ago & I'm really paying the price in terms of my research output (=0). I'm going to have no choice but to travel out there in the next 12-18 months, and at least once every other year after that. The only other option is to get a big grant that will pay for an RA so I could send him/her instead.

Sinkingfeeling and northerlurker - it's good to hear you've managed to keep a career going with 3 children. I think my problem is I can't see where I would go to after academia, and nothing could ever come close to it in terms of job satisfaction. It seems to be very much an all-or-nothing situation.

Anyway, after the day I've had looking after DD's, I'm not sure I'm cut out to cope with a third.

dontun - that would tip the balance for me. I personally couldn't do it with preschool children. But that is just me and my ideas - I struggle leaving them for one or two nights and do all sorts of mad middle of the night driving so I can put them to bed first . I sense I might have issues though

Other colleagues quite happily disappear for a week or so.

The RA idea sounds plausible - what are grants like in your area? Easy to get fairly large amounts? You could even get a small grant which would cover a summer bursary for a postgrad or something - bet one of them would love to fly out to the US for a bit! Alternatively would you be able to pay an American RA to collect it for you?

What I often do is turn conferences into mini breaks and holidays and take everyone with me. Often more difficult than it would be going alone though.

Do you have family support who would look after the DC's when you go? Its much easier looking after older ones than little ones I think especially if its during term time or whatever.

I think where there is a will there is a way - or one becomes clearer than the other.

No, it's definitely something I struggle with. I've only been to the US once since DD1 was born in April 2007. I was away for 12 nights. My parents came up to help, and I spoke to her twice a day on skype. She seemed ot cope with it fine. (I was a different matter, however. It didn't help that I was 3 months pregnant with DD2 and a raging ball of hormones! )

I'm in the Humanities so lots of people chasing sod-all research money.

This is one of the big reasons that I'm thinking about not having a third. We'll be able to afford for DH and DD's to come out with me on research trips once DD1 is in school (thereby saving childcare costs.) I don't think we could afford it with 3 children, and 3 DC's would also present practical problems (car hire, hotel rooms.) I'm so keen to teach the DD's about the US. DH and I have had a number of (slightly bizarre) family holidays planned out there since before DD1 was conceived. It's really important to me. Anyway, I'm rambling.

DD is still very young - do you think you might feel differently once she is up and toddling about, playing with DD1? What I'm trying to say is do you have to make a decision now?

Or perhaps focus on the career for a bit until you have more experience and therefore can send an RA and then have another (depending on age I guess )

Its a difficult one and I think in your case might be the deciding factor - or at least a deciding factor to going away.

I only have one ds, but have twins on the way, so will soon be an academic mum of 3 [gulp]. Really, I have no idea how I'll cope (I am in a very competitive area of science, so high impact publishing is essential).

Re the traveling though, I don't know the detail of why you have to be in the US, but I hate travel (both leaving ds and a fear of flying). But if it's about your research profile, one thing I try and do is make effort to invite people from the US to talk, especially if I know they are in the UK anyway. So I may not raise my profile by talking at US conferences, but hopefully some of the important people in the US are getting to hear of me anyway, if that makes sense?

Peppapig I'm just typically impatient to have the rest of my life planned out! But, seriously, no, I can always see how it goes. I've just got to figure out where the 'off' switch is for my broodiness.

Congratulations MamaChris! I understand what you're saying. Unfortunately, the travel is needed for research output(s). I'm a Historian, so it's a case of travelling to the US to use archives. (No travel = no research to publish.)

Ah, I understand dontrun. Can it be a family trip? Do some of the US travel you'd planned, interspersed with days in the archives? Depends how much leave your dp is entitled to, I suppose.

anything is possible, it depends very much i think on the support you have from your husband and what care set up you have a home and for stuff like cleaning, gardening? i also think the whole working thing gets more difficult when they go to school, which is just round the corner for you.

I know what you mean dontrun - I am the same. Perhaps an academic trait - I just like to 'know'.

Just switch disciplines - can't be that hard can it