Flexible working request peoblems, help please

[Jinx1906]

Request for flexible working problems.

I applied for flexible working times during the month of august ( i/e two days unpaid leave per week ) because nan and grandad are getting older and are finding it hard to look after the girls during the 6 week long summer holiday. (our kids are 6 and 10 years old)

My employer is now saying that although the law states that they have to consider my request, in their opinion this does not count as flexible working because it would have to be a permanent arrangement throughout the year and not just for one month. I have however read on the website from the citizens advice bureau that asking for change in hours during school holidays is considered to be flexible working. My employer is also saying that they are not able to agree to my request because they are worried that this would set a legal precedent. No other reasons were given, they have not told me about any other reasons why there would be a problem in terms of my job as such.

Also last Christmas a colleague was given 6 weeks of unpaid leave to go home to Singapore over Christmas and another person was given unpaid leave to go shopping in New York on a surprise birthday treat.

Any advice would be very much appreciated - many thanks in advance.

Hi Jinx. I can't see why the 1 mth change vs full year change should be an issue - it sounds like a big fat red herring to me! I would suggest you write down how the change could work in practice (ie who could take up the slack when you are not there - is August a quiet month in your industry and reduced manpower could be accommodated?) and also think of solutions to any problems they might throw up (ie lots of other staff taking their hols). Bear in mind that the employer can refuse a flexible working request if it is not operationally viable, so you will need to sell the benefits to them.

Thanks Dumbledorina,

I don't understand why the 1 month change vs the full year should be an issue either.

As the matter stands the only reason the firm have given is that they don't want to set a legal precedent. Our workload is down anyway, partly because of the recession. I have taken on the work of someone else whilst they were on maternaty leave and could still cope. This lady has now returned so we don't have anyone away at the moment and finally, I'm the only one with school age children. One person is taking 2 days off during the month of august, appart from that nobody wants to take any holidays in July or August. Most are away in September and June.

Flexible working requests are for permanent changes. Reduced hours during holidays would be that, but it would have to be permanent. So requesting changing to term time working, for example, would be permanent. Asking for some odd days unpaid leave this August would not be permanent. It sounds as though you are framing your request literally as a bit of time off this summer, which wouldn't be flexible working.

I'm not framing my request as some time off. I have explained to my employers that I need the time off because my previous childcare arrangements have changed. I would be happy to make this a permanent arrangement and reduce my working week every August.

The reason I did not included other holidays in to my request is because I believe they would be reluctant to agree to this and although it is a struggle I can cover those by using my and my husbands annual leave. Any tips as to how you think I could improve my case would be appreciated.

Also even if I were to frame it as some time off to spent time with my children why would they turn this down considering their only argument for it is that they do not want to set a legal precedent, whilst allowing people to take 6 weeks of to visit family in Singapore and allow people who have run out of holiday to take time off from next years entitlement to go on a shopping trip to New York? They even allow someone to work from home because the boyfriend who works at the same place has flu and can not make it in to work.

Maybe I'm overreacting here, and I don't mean to come across as feeling sorry for myself, but I have the feeling that I'm not being treated fairly.

Any advice and help on offer is greatly appreciated.

Other people's arrangements in terms of taking holiday or unpaid leave, or working from home occasionally are not flexible working arrangements either by the sounds of things, and I can't comment on those.

Regardless of your reasons, either you are asking for some extra time off in August, or you are putting in a flexible working request to permanently reduce your contracted hours every August.

You say you are not framing your request as 'some time off' but it is coming across that way on here so perhaps it is to them as well? If it's a permanent change you want, you need to make that clear and do it as a formal flexible working request under the legislation, making sure they consider it properly and give you one of the required 8 business reasons if they want to refuse.

See here for help on making a case for flexible working.

I have sent my formal request for Flexible working in at the end of last month. Although I have not received a decision as yet, someone who works in HR has told me in one of those of the record conversations by the water cooler that because of my flexible working request my manager intends to shift other people's work to me. Their thinking is that if my work allows me to cut my hours then they could give me extra work instead.

Until I get a written decision from my employers there is not much I can do right now, but I do wonder if anyone has any experience like this and can offer me advice.

All replies are very much appreciated.

Jinx I have not had any direct experience of your circumstances but have some ideas...

IMO the flexible working legislation puts the employee and employer in a pretty confrontational postition due to the requirements to present a case and receive a written response without any face to face negogiation. I would advise anyone who thinks they have a good relationship with their employer to think long and hard about the questions asked in the application and then to have a face to face discussion.

Think about how you, your boss and your colleagues could benefit from being flexible with a small 'f'. Points to think on:

• Reducing your hours will save the company money, if business is slow, this could be a good thing.
• Sharing work across the team, standardising practices and procedures, improving documentation so others can take over work etc will make holiday and unexpected absence cover much easier.
• In times of high work in one area, work can be more easily redistributed thus ensuring the team does not "crack" under pressure and can easily cope with changes in work load.
• If you have staff off in June / September, you could offer to cover these jobs. You could also offer that if push came to shove, you could find a holiday club / work in the evenings / find a friend to look after the children for a few hours if absolutely necessary.
• Pre-empt the comments about the taking on more work if necessary and if you feel you could, offer that for your full time periods or point out why in August it's OK but not at other times.

The government have committed in the Queen's speech to extend the right to request flexible working to everyone, by being ahead of the curve, your team could work together so that everyone gets the most out of this change - your team could become more effective / efficient, spend less time on duplicated / unnecessary activities and more on added value tasks, you and your colleagues could get the flexible working (either formal or informal arrangements) that suits them resulting in a highly motivated and happy team and the company could make savings without loosing performance.

A good review of tasks / processes / workloads / skills etc across the team could result in a real step change to teams performance provided everyone is on board to the benefits and no one person is seen to be swinging the lead.

Have in your mind what you want to achieve and what compromises you are prepared to make to get it (ie taking on more work, leading the process and work sharing review etc). If you put the right story together, you might just be in with a chance to sell it!!

Unfortunately my employer doesn't care about the people who work there. It is very much a case of '' If you don't like it leave'' kind of thinking. Yes, I'm looking for something else but it is not that easy.

There is no point having a face to face discussion, they only way I'm going to get a concession from them is if I can put a case forward that makes it difficult for them to say no.

Under no circumstances do I intend to take on extra work. Whilst my colleague was on maternity leave I have done 2 jobs resulting in huge amount of unpaid overtime, and when she came back to work she only did 3 days for the first 6 months and again I covered for her on the days she was not in the office.
I think I have done more then my fair share of being flexible.

What I'm really interested in is to find out what my position would be in case they refuse the flexible working despite the fact that I have been able to demonstrate that my workload would allow me to do so, but instead of allowing flexitime,decide that they are going to give me extra work instead.

Our entire department is low on work, although some people are pushing papers around to look busy, other are openly completing crosswords and other are taking extra long lunches. The fact that I would have to take on other peoples work, while they could do it themselves just because I asked for flexible working surely that can not be right?

I should imagine your employers are thinking of the other parents in your workplace who many be tempted to follow your lead in the future. You've mentioned a colleague returning from maternity leave and I'm sure you've got other parents there. Holiday requests for August may not be high this year but that may change. Could you not come to a compromise and ask for A/L for 2 days each (you and your DH) and pay for childcare (holiday club)for 4 days and that would cover the month.

I should imagine your employers are thinking of the other parents in your workplace who many be tempted to follow your lead in the future. You've mentioned a colleague returning from maternity leave and I'm sure you've got other parents there. Holiday requests for August may not be high this year but that may change. Could you not come to a compromise and ask for A/L for 2 days each (you and your DH) and pay for childcare (holiday club)for 4 days and that would cover the month.

No advice but wanted to say that your employers sounds really horrible and I'm not surprised you're pissed off.

I guess you have two options: One is to think you through your strategy and prepare your arguments and have an informal chat over coffee / lunch to your HR contact stating that you believe you are possibly about to be treated unfairly and are seriously concerned about the impact on your relationship with your boss and the company. Your company have already set a precedent of granting informal flexible arrangements (site the examples of the Singapore trip, the NY trip and the return to work arrangements of your colleague), you have acted in the company's best interest through working unpaid overtime when required and are unwilling to accept additional work while others have obvious spare capacity as well. You say that there is no point in talking to your boss, you could try using the same arguments in advance of the decision being made formal saying that you may be being paranoid but you are concerned that the outcome may be ... and would like to express your concerns. You could also follow this up with an already drafted email setting out your concerns / examples. I guess ultimately you are thinking whether you could be in an constructive dismissal situation, and unfortunately, I do not know. If they deny your request and give you extra work, they do appear to be treating you unfairly. Also, remember that they appear to be unlikely to challenge you on the business reasons allowed under the legistlation. here Good Luck!!

There are 14 people in my department. I'm the only one with children at school. Another lady has a 1 year old baby. The others are very young but most of them are 45 plus, so unlikely that they will have more children.

Besides, it should not make any difference that other people might ask for a similar arrangement, o'wise they should not employ women, there is always the possibility that they will have babies and are often the main carers when it comes down to the kids.

Anyway, doctors have just signed me of for 10 days with Singles apparently often caused by stress. If something good has come out of this at least I can forget about it for a few days, although I'm scratching myself senseless.

I agree with flowerybeanbag that you may need to make it crystal clear to them that you are requesting a permanent change to working arrangements during school holidays, rather than just some time off this holiday. It may be that they haven't a) understood what you're asking b) understood the possible types of flexible working that you are entitled to request.

The employer is not under any obligation to grant a request for flexi working but they must give due consideration and they must give sound reasons for denying the request.

Dumping extra work on you is not an acceptable response!

I would advise you to speak to your union if you have one.

I have used the standard letter from the gov. website and have asked for this to be made a permanent arrangement, every August to care for my children who are 6 & 10.

Altough this would not cause them to many difficulties, they simple don't want to do it and are looking for ways to turn my request down. I don't mean to sound negative but I'm sure they will be able to make their reasons for not granting the flexitime stick. My guess is that they will tell me that altough my workload would allow me to work flexible during the month of August, they will give me some extra jobs so it is no longer workable.

If only the job market would pick up.

Jinx, you seem to imply that childcare / flexible working is an women's issue - it's not, it's a parents' issue. One of my male colleagues works part time throughout the year and takes extra time off during the summer. So when I say there may be others in your department who may follow your lead, I'm not just talking about women, I'm talking about all parents and those with caring responsibilities.

Unfortunately, where I work childcare is mainly a woman's issue.

I'm not saying that the modern man doesn't exist, however overall it seems that that the majority of those taking time out to look after children are woman. I don't think this will change any time soon, especially in the private sector.

The only men in our department are managers, who are main breadwinners with stay at home women. The directors, again all men already work from home, flexible and come in as they please. The other day one stayed at home because his wife had flu and wanted to help out with their 2 year old, which is great. It is just a shame that those who already have those privileges don't seem to be very understanding with regards to the needs of others.

I don't have any advice on flexible working beyond what has been written here. I do sympathise - it sounds like you have horrid employers.

One thing you may need to think about though is whether having 2 days unpaid in August is really what you need as a permanent solution. You say the reason for doing this is that the GPs are getting older and finding it hard to look after the children. So it is entirely plausible that you do 2 days per week unpaif this year but then next year or the year after they can't even manage the 3 days per week that they plan to do this summer. So then you would be looking to change your flexible working again or perhaps even be in a situation where you have to take the whole of August off or something.

So you might actually have better luck framing it as a request to work part time for a month this year - and then cite the other one-off unpaid leave examples - rather than it being a formal permanent flexible working arrangement that applies year in year out. If you had to go back to them next year and say "oh actually i need to change my formal flexible working request again to having 3 days unpaid" they could get really shirty and refuse. Whereas if you did it as a one-off and they continued to offer this type of one-off flexibility to others over the course of the year, then you can tailor a request for next year to suit your situation next year.

I know this will take time to filter through but the right to request flexible working will be extend to everyone in this parlimentary session so with luck your 45 year olds might fancy a few hours volunteering, on the golf course, pottering in the garden or taking holidays out of term time. Doesn't help you yet but here's hoping it has a positive impact on stories like yours.

Does anyone know how long the employer has to respond to a written application for flexible working?

I thought it would be 28 days, however I'm not sure if this is working days or calendar days. My original application went in on 28 May 2010, however I have been signed off sick by my GP for 7 working days. I would assume that this will be added on to the 28 days.

In practice, what happens if an employer does not respond within the time allowed, does this meant that this should be construed as a ''No''.

Any replies are very much appreciated.

Jinx1906, unfortunately your children are too old for you to have a right to unpaid leave.

If you are making a flexi-work request then I think you should apply for a number of days you could take off unpaid every year (which is then your choice to use up or not). In my view it is a real waste to use a flexi-work request for a couple of days extra holiday. You can only make 1 request (unless you change job) and that is then it!

I think the reality is that you need to beg for unpaid holiday (if you are really stuck they may feel they have no option to give it to you especially as others in the company have had unpaid leave). Otherwise could you not find another way for your children to be looked after. What about after school clubs and childminders? There is temporary childcare out there as I have used it in the past when my regular childminder has been away on holiday.

Realistically if your grandparents are struggling then a one-off solution won't fix the problem.