Do you work extra hours? (unpaid)

[bluejeans]

I started a new job last year. I recently had a review which went well however one thing my boss said was that at my level he expected me to stay late more often - he even aked about my child care arrangements. In my last job (same industry) I sometimes had to stay late at busy times, deadlines etc but always felt it was my decision and I didn't mind - I think it's totally different when it's a case of having to be seen to be doing it. I said to my boss that I don't mind staying late if needed but I'd normally need to know in advance and he said 'you're the project manager so you should know when you'll need to ' - but it doesn't work like that, does it?? DH travels quite a lot for work and when he's not away we car share so it's complicated. I'm not the leave at 5 on the dot type but do need to be away by about 20 past to make sure I'm in time to pick up DD

My job can be quite stressful and all consuming and on days like today I come home feeling brain dead and find it hard to find the energy and patience my DD requires so I am really realy not keen to be doing longer hours

I'm a manager but not senior, I don't earn mega bucks. Do others regularly do extra hours - should I accept this is the norm these days?

I'd really appreciate some views/advice on this - thanks.

I regularly work late if it fits in with dh's shifts (so about 2 weeks out of 3). I do it because I've taken on too many projects, we're understaffed and my deadlines sometimes don't fit in with my 3 day week.

However, while there is an implicit expectation in my workplace that you'll work to get the job done (public sector, no overtime, tight budgets) and we all do our bit, if my manager told me I had to stay late for no reason other than to show my face, I'd tell her to take a running jump.

Presenteeism is just stupid and largely means that people are faffing about too much during the day.

I do a lot of extra hours, and I would certainly expect my project managers to do extra hours when things are wrapping up to get things done if it needed it.

Depends on your industry and projects, but maybe it's the feeling that you never have any flexibility in your schedule that's an issue ? Do you have to car share with DH, or when he's not travelling could you spend a little longer at work ?

Or maybe take a laptop home/paperwork ?

Thanks for the replies

Shona - your job sounds like mine (except I'm private sector) Presenteeism is a good word

CMOT - I don't have to car share but DH would need to take the car to get back for DD so I'd be on the bus which takes ages - so staying late and a longer commute home. My boss did ask me to arrange remote access through our helpdesk (won't provide a laptop!) but I have to sign a policy to state my anti virus, spyware etc up to date and I'm not sure it is!

I think I would find it easy to work late if I didn't have children - I'm constatntly racing against the clock

Get yourself set up to work from home, the odd email sent at unusual hours can foster impression of all hours working, without really doing it. Even better get them to get you a blackberry, can pick up emails and respond without wasting more than a few minutes of your time.

Also maybe you need to get really specific, ask your boss for examples where you not staying late resulted in project not delivering for example, if he can't then there really is no reason for you to do it.

Yes, but I have a laptop and work in the evening from home if necessary. Like you I have to collect dd from school so MUST leave by a certain time, but have no issue with doing a couple of hours later on. I quite often do phone calls on the bus.

how late is late?

I think it's perfectly reasonable to say you have to leave at a certain time (5.20)

did you sign away your rights to the working time directive when you signed your contract?

I work a lot of extra hours but I knew I would have to when I took the job. Because of that though, I also leave early on occasion, when I need to and can work on the train/at home.

Personally, I don't believe anyone should have to do permanent extra hours. Can understand the odd burst at the end of a project but if they are expecting you just to show your face every evening, then I think that's not right.

It's good to hear everyone's views. I think I do need to get the remote access sorted - esp as I often leave in a hurry so remember things I forgot to do on the way home!

Like the idea of being seen to send a few emails at odd hours...

Fox - 'I think it's perfectly reasonable to say you have to leave at a certain time (5.20)' - thank you - I don't know why but I think 've convinced myself that it's not ok to do this ever and have been over thinking it probably

Flexitime is a real bugger for this. No overtime is payable, but you can take a day's flexi leave a month using extra hours worked. Except that in the past I've frequently been doing at least twice if not three times that in extra hours, and because of the workload couldn't even take the one day off. I lost all the hours of course. I've long since given up being a martyr.

Yes - I'm not entitled to time back but the person who works for me, I have been told can do extra hours at busy times then take the time back when we're quiet - er, we're never quiet! Think she would be prefer paid overtime!

yes. I have always worked extra hours unpaid and to be honest I do expect it from people who work with me.

I have remote access as I have to leave at 4/ 4.30 to pick up the DC.

My other bugbear with flexitime is that it really penalises you if you are ill and yet make the effort to go to work. I've had a couple of periods of prolonged illness where I've struggled to complete my full hours. If I took the whole day off sick I'd get the full credit for the day. By going in a bit late or leaving a bit early I end up having to make up the time, thus adding to the stress of being ill. Fair? I think not.

Mind you, I've never worked outside the public sector so maybe all employers are that mean?

I work extra hours, most people in my job do. However I probably didn't when my children were younger and I literally couldn't. I agree that presenteeism for the sake of it is crazy, and you should ask for specific examples of where your leaving on time has cause you not to perform.
However there's a bit of a fine line to be drawn between not coming across as too much of a clockwatching jobsworth whilst also not being over generous with time you don't have.

CatJosephine - I think that's fine, to a point, except when the employer relies on the continued dedication and goodwill of staff to avoid maintaining proper staffing levels.

I work about an hour etc each week that I don't keep a note of and then occasionally I work late (when dh is around for kids) and I do keep a note of that and take it back. I also bring a few things home. I work in the NHS and my manager certainly doesn't expect me to do it - but everybody does at some point and it's really the only way to crack through stuff without constant interruptions. I don't expect my staff to do this though - it very much goes with manager territory.

I'd be really miffed if it was expected and / or constant; the occasional exceptional circumstance is fair enough I suppose.

It does appear to be fairly common though. The TUC reckons over five million people in the UK regularly do unpaid overtime, "giving their employers £27.4 billion of free work every year". For these people, 26 Feb 2010 was the day this year when the average person finishes the unpaid days and starts earning for themselves.

www.worksmart.org.uk/workyourproperhoursday/

I think that there are two issues here - are you being asked to work late to be seen to, or because you need to to get your work done? The second is, I'm afraid, normal in more senior roles if required.

The reason I ask is you say this: "I think I do need to get the remote access sorted - esp as I often leave in a hurry so remember things I forgot to do on the way home!" If you're forgetting stuff that needs doing that day, perhaps this was your boss' clunky way of raising it?

What Ribena said. If it's just a case of wanting you to be showing your face late for no reason, and your job is being done marvellously well anyway, then that's a bit off.

But if you're a manager you would be expected to get the job done well rather than stop when you need to leave regardless, or, if you need to leave on time for pick-ups, to sort something out like remote access.

I also have to agree that if you are a project manager you ought to know when things might be a bit tight in terms of deadlines or things happening and might require a bit extra to get things done. Unless your boss wants something particular done for him at a certain time, which would obviously be more common in junior/assistant roles, as a manager I wouldn't expect you to be told when you needed to stay late and when you could leave on time.

When I was working in house I used to usually get in around 8.30 and leave around 6 or 6.30, and I wouldn't class that as coming in early or leaving late tbh. One job I had a while go I did use to leave at 5.30 to catch a train with a friend and then log on immediately I got home for a while.

Thanks for all the replies!

Northern - I probably work similar hours to you at the moment - the difference is in this job it seems expected and in previous jobs I felt it was my decision to stay when I felt it necessary

Ribena - my job is hectic with lots of projects at different stages so I do find it quite hard to get everything done each day and rmemeber everything - yes maybe that is what my boss means - although my 6 month review had some fairly specific performance related questions and nothing else was mentioned.

I guess when I posted I wanted to hear other people's views and the concensus does seem to be extra hours are expected/necessaary fair enough

flowery - what I meant when I said I don't always know when I'll need to stay late is that sometimes when you go in in the moring you don't know what lies ahead (in this type of work anyway) - for example if there's an issue on one of the projects, the client needs something urgently - as opposed to a planned deadline - so it's hard to plan ahead for childcare. Did you have a nanny when you regularly worked 8:30 - 6? It's such a long day for a child to be left...

Maybe I need to think if this is the job for me

Eclectec - thanks for the link!

Thanks again for all the responses - it's been really interesting to get some views on this

Absolutely right, things do crop up and you don't know about them. It just sounded from your OP as though you were wanting your manager to give you advance warning of a specific requirement at a busy time.

I didn't have children at all when I worked full time in house. Having children was one of the reasons I stopped working that way and now work from home for myself. I was working the hours I mentioned and also commuting an hour and a half each way as well, so I personally wouldn't have wanted to keep that up with children.

If leaving on time and then having remote working set up for dealing with things or catching up is workable, I reckon that's your best option really, or going part time, with shorter days.

Until recently I was consistently doing 20% extra hours, unpaid.

Certainly in my work, I feel there is a degree of sexism in relation to hours worked and child-care responsibilities. I work pt - and frequently get the impression my managers feel I am not that committed by working PT, whilst at the same time my male managers will happily tell me they can't attend meetings because they are attending their DC graduations / getting their wife's car MOT'd etc.

Thanks Flowery - working from home sounds good. I've put in my aplication for remote access (it does feel as if they'll be doing me a favur by allowing me to work extra hours at home!) so am now looking forward to evenings of catching up on emails and reviewing SOPs. Sigh...

I actually worked part time in my previous job, from 9.15 to 4.15 but more often that not worked 9-5. I didn't like it at the time but maybe it was the ideal set up asI could do the extra hours needed without being late home. But the fact that a lot of the full time people worked the same hours but got paid a full time salary anoyed me after a while

Yearofthecat - you mentioned tht you worked extra till recently - how did you manage to stop?! There aren't many men with children where I work so not really experienced that situation you described but there are some hard - driven women without kids who have mentioned more than once that if they had children they would be full time mums - they totally make you feel you're a crap mum as well as a crap colleague sometimes!

Bluejeans, this sounds really straightforward, but mainly I just stopped doing the extra hours, which meant the work wasn't done (only the extra bits - not the core work), which meant that extra tasks weren't assigned to me. (Although I did also increase my hours a bit, which meant I was actually getting paid for the work I was doing).

My boss is the sort that no matter how much you protest, he will just dump more and more tasks on you, all urgent, and expect them to be done. And I was complicit in it, because I did my best to deliver. There was one particular role which I had, which really needed to be covered by someone in a ft post, and I had raised it again and again and he just ignored it. When a really important aspect of it wasn't completed, I reminded him of all the (documented) occasions I had raised the issue, and eventually the role was assigned to another, more appropriate person.

Hi
I'm not in a management position but I do extra work and it is annoying me at present. Nobody is telling me that I have to do it, but the project that I am working on will slip if I don't do it.
Like you mentioned earlier I'm PT meant to do 5.25 hours per day but recently have been doing up to about 6.5 hours each day. I know that it isn't a lot to full timers, but I do it on the trot with no break. Where I work a full day is only 7 hours so I do nearly FT days but on my PT salary. However, given the nature of the work I'm hoping that everything will slow down a bit soon so I will be able to work my hours and the fact that I have given extra when needed means that my managers are flexible when it comes to me having to attend school for various occasions.
I can't offer any more ideas than what has been said already, but I hope you sort it out soon,
MLx

I have/have had people working for me who need to leave at a set time. It makes a huge difference whether they pick up work later or whether they regard the time they leave work as the time they finish working.
The former just creates so much more flexibility - its not that they always do something but I know they will if needed