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employer had me arrested after I brought tribunal case

191 replies

cantcarryon · 30/01/2010 14:22

This has upset me so much, I am having suicidal thoughts.

Basically, I was accused of gross misconduct and dismissed because me employer alleged that I claimed for false overtime hours. This despite the fact that he signed all the payments off over several years. His motivation is that my job is to make financial reports to head office and I made a report which showed a deal he had put together had achieved really appalling results. He threatened me and ordered me to change the report and I refused.I am bringing a tribunal case against him and have been advised by my solicitor that I have a really strong case.

I received a call out of the blue from the police. They had received an allegation from my former employer, they wanted me to make an appointment to go down and talk to them about it. I went down, was promptly arrested, put in a cell for over an hour waiting for the duty solicitor, then spent over 4 hours consulting solicitor and being interviewed. Solicitor says case a load of rubbish but police are obliged to investigate all complaints. So basically, anyone can walk into a police station, make a completely false allegation against you and have you arrested and detained for hours, even days, and you can do absolutely nothing about it.

I've now been bailed and have to return in a month. I now have to worry for weeks that I may go to prison, i may lose my family. I feel so powerless, I can't even leave the house, never mind look for work. I feel my life has ended and don't know how to carry on.

Why are employers allowed to destroy people's lives and get away with it?

Please, can anyone offer me any comfort?

OP posts:
welshdeb · 31/01/2010 13:59

I am not a solicitor but I thought the principles of justice were innocent until proven guilty and the prosecution had to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I would have thought that the fact you were dismissed ( for an unrelated matter) and are now going to a tribunal prompting the complaint would suggest to anyone investigating it was malicious.
You do not have to prove your innocence. They have to prove you did it and if you didn't well they can't prove it can they.
If you haven't already I would request that your solicitor reminds your employers that there is an offence called something like wasting police time, and surely this has to be harrassment too.

Ponymum · 31/01/2010 14:09

He is trying to scare you into not going through with the tribunal. Don't let him have the satisfaction. His actions are outrageous. I too am absolutely shocked that the police are "obliged" to arrest someone based on a completely unsubstantiated allegation! Take comfort from the fact that this is going to look VERY bad for him in court. I think it will also significantly increase the settlement you will receive for victimisation and injury to feelings.

moocowme · 31/01/2010 21:14

if your employer is found to be vindictive after you have made a complaint or flagged something up and you are successful at tribunal your payout will multiply. the courts take a very dim view of employers who are vindictive. i think you boss has been really really really stupid in making these acusations.

check your memry stick for files and dates. do you have paslips covering this time showing the overtime? can you write notes about what you think you were doing each time you had overtime? are you friends with anyone else in the organisation who did the same sort of work as you did? do they still get overtime being signed off in the same way by him?

cantcarryon · 01/02/2010 00:38

Moocow - unfortunately the memory stick has gone missing. I suspect my employer stole it on the day I had the fact finding meeting but I cant prove it. It is particularly annoying as it was my own property - he was too cheap to even supply this.

Payslips detail overtime hours and hourly rate. I can say in general what kinds of work I regularly did but now way can i pinpoint what work I did on any particular day. Any info which might help with that is held by my employer.

Again, unfortunately I am the only person in the organisation who did this kind of work, and the only person regularly doing overtime. This is because my basic contracted hours are part time and employer asked me to do extra hours over the years.

One thing I would like an opinion on from anyone with legal expertise:

During the police interview copies of some of my personal emails were produced by the officer who told me they had ben given to him by my boss. These had been sent to my personal email address, not my work email address. They included copies of personal credit card statements, correspondence relating to legal action I am taking against the council, and emails to my local LEA re getting school places for my children. They were supposedly evidence I had financial difficulties and therefore had motive to steal money. In fact, they show nothing of the kind (I expect a large payout from the action against the council). But the point is my employer has no right to read my personal emails, and certainly cannot give this info to a third party. There is no policy on email usage at the company and certainly no notification or consent given to monitoring of email. Am i right in thinking boss has breached the Data Protection Act and I can take action against him for damages? Is the breach a civil or criminal breach?

OP posts:
AitchTwoOhOneOh · 01/02/2010 00:52

doesn't your solicitor have the right to ask for the documents that prove your case to be released by your employer? i'm absolutely sure that he does, tbh.

don't know about data protection act, sorry.

LadyBiscuit · 01/02/2010 20:06

Sorry these emails were things sent and received to your personal email address that your boss has used as evidence? How did he access your personal email?

If I've understood you right, then yes, that is a breach of privacy and I am amazed that the police used them because I wouldn't think they'd be admissible unless they had a court order. If they didn't I would think they were inadmissible as evidence (but am not a lawyer - check this stuff with your solicitor surely?)

If you mean they were personal emails using your work email address then I think it's probably an entirely different matter - my employer has the right to view any emails that I send from that address (hence I never use for personal stuff)

Dotgreen · 02/02/2010 09:37

Hello cantcarryon How are you today? Your thread is a lesson to us all. Keep your personal life personal and don't use work e-mail for private dealings even e-mailing the nursery to book extra cover. Company e-mails are for company business and they own the information you use. Sorry you had to learn the hard way. They can also check on the websites that you go on, look into your shopping habits. Warning to all don't mix the two no matter how convenient.

Wizpunzel · 03/02/2010 13:05

Dear CCO

I totally sympathise with your situation. I was a senior manager for many years in a small organisation and went through hell after raising a grievance with employers for bullying and threatening behaviour and age discrimination. Only now, after a year, are we at the point of settling. It caused me continual anxiety and depression symptoms. Go to your GP quickly if you feel these are overwhelming you and maybe insist on getting help from psychiatric specialist. I had wonderful support from mine.

From what you have posted here ? your employer has little chance of succeeding. Tribunals take a dim view of retaliation and by your account, this is the worst kind of malice. If he signed off your overtime claims without checking them or raising the issue at the time, it is very unlikely a court will offer much credence to his objections now and find in his favour. You say he ?trusted? you to get it right. That?s fine ? the employment relationship is based on ?mutual trust and confidence? if this man didn?t implement checks and policies to prevent fraud then that?s his error. He is obviously trying to cover his own back for his own poor performance. Your solicitor says that you have a strong case and you must believe this. However, I know that legal fees are expensive but these can vary enormously and Citizens Advice and ACAS may also be of help.

I assume you are claiming Unfair Dismissal? Have you requested full disclosure of all the evidence he has against you? This includes all emails, correspondence and everything else relating to you (and going back as far as the point you were employed, if necessary). If you used your work emails then your employer will be able to gain access to these, whether that is a breach of privacy or not, is debatable. LadyBiscuit and Dot?s advice is wise, keep work emails separate but we?ve all done it. If it was your personal email (assuming you didn?t share your password with him or anyone else), he must disclose how he obtained access; and also how he obtained credit card statements or any other personal information. If the providers of these services have proffered this information to him then it is they who are in breach of Data Protection. In any case, all of this appears to be circumstantial and has no direct link in support of his allegations ? millions of people with temporary money difficulties don?t automatically commit fraud.

I?m sorry to hear what happened to you at the police station which was clearly unpleasant but, as Dot (earlier) confirms, this is merely process being carried out. Try not to take it personally; however if you believe you were treated unreasonably by the police force you are entitled to make a complaint but that is a separate issue. Last year the Home Office issued a report on the retention of DNA and fingerprint details ? if you?re concerned about this read para 15 which covers ?exceptional destruction? (www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/cons-2009-dna-database/wms-dna-fingerprints-20092835.pdf?vie w=Binary).

A friend of mine (male) had a similar experience. He raised a grievance because he was on sick leave when a promotion opportunity became available and was not informed. In retaliation the employer got nasty, ultimately accused him of letting two members of his staff have some company ?products? for free and it was reported to the police as fraud and he was questioned by them. In fact the allegations were a load of rubbish (the items were on loan) and were dropped instantly. In brief, he threatened to take his employer to Tribunal but they knew they were in the wrong and it was settled beforehand. He got several thousand pounds and glowing reference which formed part of a ?compromise agreement? between him and the employer.

However, I do know that when one is suffering from depression, the whole world becomes distorted (STAY CALM AND RATIONAL) you think you?re in the wrong (YOU?RE NOT), you?ll lose everything that?s dear to you (YOU WON?T) and you can?t face the battle (YOU CAN and you will WIN) and of course you'll get another job. However, the courts are busy and it does take time. Take the moral support from all those who care about you. I had family, friends and even colleagues who helped me enormously.

Good luck, take care and keep us posted!

Wizzie

ConnieComplaint · 03/02/2010 13:20

Dot, I think she said it was her personal email address he got the emails from

Though she obviously accessed these on the work PC, surely they would've been password protected & it was none of his business.

YorkshireRose · 04/02/2010 08:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

StealthPolarBear · 04/02/2010 09:40

just read this and so sorry youre going through this, as others have said it doesn't sound good for him & i hope they throw the book at him!

A few things:

  • Did you realise you've outed yourself, used another posting name?
  • What sort of personal emails were they- were they web based, hotmail/yahoo or something? if so then no, they can';t have been 'stored' on your work machine and i think you need to find out more about how he got access to them
  • As people keep pointing out they need to prove beyond reasonable doubt you're guilty, everything that is hazt, can't be shown one way or another should work IN YOUR FAVOUR. this isn't the case for employment tribunals but is for criminal charges.

Keep hopeful and focus on making him pay for all he's put you through.

Wizpunzel · 04/02/2010 11:03

Quote What sort of personal emails were they- were they web based, hotmail/yahoo or something? if so then no, they can't have been 'stored' on your work machine and i think you need to find out more about how he got access to them

Stealthpolarbear is absolutely right! I agree you could pursue this but he may not feel inclined to tell you. Unless...of course, you allowed your work PC to automatically save passwords to your personal email accounts and there is a slim chance he logged in on your machine (as you) then the dots were already showing and access was possible. If you downloaded any attachments to your PC, he may have got hold of these but the body text of your emails would not be possible without logging in with passwords. Alternatively, he's guessed at your passwords (name of children, pet, etc?); or he's got some geek to use password cracking software. Extreme but the technology is available.

He cannot use (and would be foolish to even mention) this against you in a Tribunal. However, if it does go to tribunal there nothing to stop you referring to his aggressive and humiliating actions in your Statement and your counsel will no doubt cross-examine him on this matter.

Take care
Wizzie

moocowme · 04/02/2010 20:08

did any of the evidence at the police station lok like it was you personal stuff from your missing USB stick or personal email accounts?

i think you need to talk to the police about this theft etc. I am sure also that you should be able to see anything the police had as evidence as well.

he is just a nasty little turd, so don't let him intimidate you.

Casserole · 04/02/2010 21:22

Hi cantcarryon. I just wanted to say I feel for you. I've never had anything like you describe but an incompetent manager once made me life hell when I made a complaint, to the extent where I ended up being signed off with stress after bursting into tears at my desk and just not being able to stop crying

Eventually I was vindicated but it was such a hideous time. It was completely outside of my experience and control and it totally took over my life.

I'm wondering if you've talked to your doctor about it all? It's just that some of the things you've said about your state of mind are worrying to me and I wonder if some drugs might help in the short term. My GP put me on anti-ds when I was off with stress; I wasn't on them for long, and they didn't make me hapy or make everything go away but they did just take the edge of my despair enough for me to be able to see more clearly, which is what I really needed in order to be able to hold it all together (and fight my case).

Anyway. I just thought I'd share that. I really hope you have support around you. You are clearly a decent person and you don't deserve this to be happening to you. Keep confidence in your abilities and the facts that you know to be true.

cantcarryon · 04/02/2010 23:16

Casserole - thanks for your kind words, I hope that the creep who made your life hell got what he deserved.

I know that I really need to see my doctor again as I am finding it really hard to carry on with normal life at the moment. My DH is trying to discourage me from taking any anti Ds as he thinks i'll get addicted, but I just can't go on like this. Will make appointment tomorrow.

OP posts:
StealthPolarBear · 05/02/2010 07:52

how are you doing cco?
don't know anything about ADs, but surely your doctor should be able to help with the addiction worries, plus you need help now!
Please keep us updated if you feel up to it, I want to know that this guy gets what's coming to him!

cantcarryon · 05/02/2010 08:40

Thanks Stealth - I am going to ring for an appointment today.

I would just like to thank everyone who has posted here offering support. It means such a lot to get an independent viewpoint as it is so easy to start questioning your own judgement when you have to hear the nonsense spouted by ex-employer and the police (who, to be honest simply parroted the case that Ex-employer used at the disciplinary hearing and admitted that he had not actually looked at the so-called evidence that was given to him). I am starting to see that there is plenty of independent evidence for my side of the story (ie the truth!) and none for his crazy version of events except his own statements which he has continually contradicted.

That said, I still have this police case hanging over my head as i have not been told it has been dropped. As it stands I will have to go in to answer bail and technically I could be charged and have to undergo a trial, what if the jury is as mad as he is and convicts me, what the hell will I do if I end up with a criminal record......

This all just goes round and round my head all day and night and i can't just dismiss it even though logic says it will never happen. Sometimes it does happen to people, though. The justice system is not perfect.

Just trying to hang onto my sanity and hope it all comes right in the end. Just so difficult to see a light at the end of the tunnel.

OP posts:
StealthPolarBear · 05/02/2010 08:49

"what if the jury is as mad as he is and convicts me"
he's not mad, he's vindictive and trying to muddy the waters of his own employment issues (presumably capability). The jury are 12 people not one, and they are impartial!
I know the justice system isn't perfect but I do believe that in most cases it gets it right. From what you've said here your case is fairly straightforward (although I have absolutely no specialist knwledge). I doubt very much it will be you ending up with the record, it will be him, wonder if that has occured to him yet?

Please try to keep the faith, although I can't imagine how hard it is to wait and worry. What does your solicitor say about all this? Does he/she seem to think you should be digging out evidence of your hours, or relying on the other side to prove you didn't work the hours you said? (which obviously they can't because you did!)

cantcarryon · 05/02/2010 10:18

Stealth - the duty solicitor at the police station said just stick to what you have already said and they don't have a case.

Solicitor dealing with tribunal case says it is really unreasonable of him to expect hard evidence of my hours now a year after the fact and that he will find it pretty impossible to explain how he can justify saying that he had not approved the payments if he signed them off. His opinion of the police case is that it will be quickly thrown out and we will use it as evidence of bullying which I can claim substantial compensation for.

So lots are people are telling me it is all rubbish and I know on a rational level that they are right. But I still get these dreadful moments of panic when my mind races and I think "what if they are all wrong?"

I think i need lots of people to continually reassure me that its going to be OK. As you can imagine this is driving DH nuts and he is trying to be patient. But it is great to get reassurance from all you lovely people on MN - takes some of the pressure off the poor man!

OP posts:
Miggsie · 05/02/2010 10:31

CCO...altough you say you don't have records of the work done any more, your company mail system should have.

The main mail server and login server should show a trail of mails sent and recieved so if you emailed a mailbox, even from your home email address it will be recorded in the company's central servers.
Also, if you were emailing from a home address the ISP you use will have this recorded.
They are obliged to keep such information stored for at least a year, and financial reocrds are meant to be 7 years.

If you think there is any chance this is taken seriously (although it looks like a total spite move from your employer) request that the police sieze and examine all the mail and storage server details at your work. The police can also request info from your ISP to show exact dates adn time whenever you mailed items to certain addresses. Because your boss has brought criminal charges the police can use their powers to seize this information. I would tell the police to examine all the electronic records at your work.

I am sure head office will be thrilled when they get the police notice of seizure of electronic records. The police have the power to physically remove servers in criminal cases, they may just ask for the records in this case and not take the main servers but it would be worth telling the police that the main company servers will show when items were emailed and recieved by your work.

(I'm an IT person and not only do our mail systems log every single time people log in and out, they log all mail and also what websites you visit!!! You'd be amazed)

GrendelsMum · 05/02/2010 13:52

CCO - just wanted to add my support. You are innocent, and they cannot prove that you are guilty. Please do get down to the doctors and keep going with the tribunal.

When you've won your compensation and the case against you has been dropped (and perhaps the boss dragged down to the cells himself for making false allegations?) you can contact the local paper so that everyone else knows what a shit this man is - 'boss has innocent woman arrested for reporting his financial incompetence' would make a great story!

moocowme · 06/02/2010 21:46

do try to write it all down. you could make some money writing a book about it all. do some tv appearences etc (best to think about getting a nice hair cut now).

i am sure you need to get the police to get the evidence now. do ask them about this (try not to smile to much when asking!)

i weathered years of this kind of abuse once. but just walked out the door one day and never went back. now years later i have a much more fulfilling career and could not give a toss about the loosers.

you will be ok in the end.

Judy1234 · 06/02/2010 22:30

Poor you.

I would still try to get as much evidence as you can both for this criminal thing and for the tribunal in case it becomes an issue in that.

Try to get some of the following:

You can pay an IT expert to analyse your computer used at home for this work - even if you deleted the emails it is possible to get them off the hard drive. They may show the work you did. Delete emails can be found. They also may be on the backup server at the office too and your lawyer can require those to be obtained from work.

Secondly write down in full your hours. May be someone was home and could give a statement saying she starts work at X time, she continues to Y or every time I pop in she's hard at it etc etc.

Thirdly your computer might show what sites you were on and where - if it's mostly work web sites etc that might help prove your hours worked.

Fourthly you may be the only person at your work who does this type of work but load of other companies will have home workers who do similar work - get in touch with others and they could give you statements of the sorts of hours they put in to do this kind of work.

if he's signed the statement - overall amount paid to you and knows the hourly rate then how can he later say I had no idea how many hours she worked? Surely if you expect someone to do something in say 3 hours at £10 a nour and she oputs in a £300 bill the very first time you say - hang on there - you're very very slow, written warning our out on your ear. Your employer did not do that.

What are the amounts? Is he saying you spent 10x longer than is expected and claimed £20k extra or just a few hours or what?

Were the emails personal ones sent to your work email address or ones to your personal email account that he has somehow accessed like your hotmail emails?

WingedVictory · 06/02/2010 22:38

Hi, can'tcarryon, I would like to add to the chorus of encouragement. You are not looking at your situation properly from the inside, and really need to listen to the voices from outside, telling you what it looks like to outsiders.... outsiders like a tribunal, the company management, etc.

This man must supply proof, or there is no case. It doesn't matter what you can prove or can't; you could even sit and say nothing, and could still win.

He has undermined his own "proof", by signing off your time sheets (negligent? or a liar? Hmmm....). He has behaved belligerently (again, the behaviour of someone searching for a means to succeed, because he can't with his case alone). He called the police on you, rather than being more civilised - why? (could it be that he has no evidence, but wanted to make a big show? Duh...) His very behaviour speaks against him.

Meanwhile, you made a case against him which it seemed you could prove, because it was taken up.

Also, I hope it will help if I share something of my experience of jury duty. Jurors are not meant to talk about cases or evidence, but I will try to be vague and say that we did argue round and round and round this case with no forensic evidence, all very conscious that we would be sending one or two people to jail. In the end, we decided that one of the defendants, although he was clearly present at the crime, was not necessarily aware of what was being done. Now, we knew we could have been wrong, and in fact, he had a previous record for something very similar. But without evidence, we were NOT willing to convict him. We also thought the previous case could well have made him wary of repeating such a crime. Perhaps were swayed by human sympathy for the one we acquitted (he might have been guilty, after all; we were just interpreting), but it was more likely our sense of responsibility which made us unable to convict. Your jury would feel the same.... if it ever gets to court!

Your case is much more clear-cut, with a clear motive for him, versus a meh motive for you. The prosecution must prove; defence must just defend; whereas, as I said above, you had evidence against him, which is why you entered the tribunal process.

He must be scared, and is making it worse for himself, the more he shouts and accuses and does shit like gets you arrested.

I know it's hard to snap out of the paralysis of fear, but if you can get angry (and there is a lot of fuel here, for your anger!), your sense of paralysis should disappear and you should see more clearly what to do, and maybe even gain some appetite for the fight with this bastard. Let's see him get everything coming to him!

WingedVictory · 06/02/2010 22:45

P.S. Your employers have failed in their duty of care if they back this manager against, rather than letting him be investigated.