payment for snow days

[dylansaunty]

Can anyone answer this?

DH is on an annual contract, so gets paid monthly, no overtime etc.
He had to take 2 days off cos he couldn't get to work due to the snow, and the main road being closed.

His bosses have agreed to pay all staff this time, but next time they have to use it as holiday, or make up the hours. His contract does not have any mention of this sort of situation.

I'm sure I heard on the news that unless your contract said so, they must pay you and cant make you take it as holiday.

Does anyone know?
thanks

some info here

and here

and here

seems to me that people aren't actually very clear on it.

I'm afraid I'm of the view that you've no right to be paid unless that is specifically promised to you. I find all this stuff in the press about unlawful deductions frankly a bit baffling.

An employment contract has two central elements: employee works, employer pays. If the employee doesn't work, then no matter how good the reason, the employer doesn't pay unless there are specific rules entitling payment - e.g. SMP, SSP, company sick pay. There are no such rules for weather related absence.

What the media has got right is that your employer can't force you to take it as holiday unless either you agree, or it is in the company policies/your contract somewhere.

Sorry.

Because I'm a nerd, I've been thinking about this technically too.

'Emergency' leave for care of dependants supports my analysis above:

• if there was a right to be absent for 'good' reasons, then there would be no need for ELFCD in the first place; and

• if there were such a right, it would place those absent for reasons relating to dependants (where the leave is specifically unpaid) at a disadvantage compared to those absent for other reasons. This cannot have been the governments intention since this was billed as an improvement to parent/carer rights.

I think if you are absent due to weather it is technically an unauthorised absence. The question is then whether the employer could reasonably discipline for that absence which, if you were snowed in/couldn't reasonably get to work, they couldn't.

Sorry. Geek in me had to think that all through.

I am an employer - v small business - we actually fot emailed advice on what to do if an employee couldn't make it in.
we could if we wanted pay them, but no obligation to do so; they should be advised to make alternative arrangements to get in safely etc.
My neice works at Sainsbury's, they have all been told then have 4 weeks to make up any time lost because they were late or missed a shift. Otherwise they lose the pay for the hours they didn't do.

I swear I thought I must be going barmy for thinking all this unauthorised deduction stuff in the media was questionable! It seems my instinct has not actually deserted me, phew.

If the basic idea of the contract is that the employee shows up and works on x days for x hours, and in return the employer pays them y amount of money, unless the contract says a specific reason for absence will be paid, surely the default must be that absence will not be authorised and will therefore not be paid?

Otherwise it seems that the default position for absences is that they are paid unless there is a specific clause stating otherwise. Can't be right! I will not be advising my clients to add huge lists of the reasons for absence that are unpaid to their contracts. Snow, earthquake, trapped under large elephant, where does it end?! Most employers list somewhere which absences will be paid, and the expectation must be that absences for other reasons may not be paid.

Having said that, I am advising my clients not to be overharsh as long as they are confident people did make every reasonable effort to get in. Most are paying the absence and saying that next time it may be either unpaid or taken as holiday.

What I wonder about all this is where does all the un-done work go? Into the ether? I suspect a lot of it gets done, in a hurry when people return to work. So if people get pay docked or are forced to take it as holiday, what happens when they go back to work and have to do it any way?

I should have said that some jobs, e.g. nannying, the work HAS "disappeared", but in other work, perhaps sales/publicity, it can be recouped.

Flowery. Hurrah. I hoped you would back me up! I'm pleased I thought it through with the dependants leave. I think that that would be quite convincing to a tribunal!

Echt - at a practical level I totally agree with you. For example, in a law firm the work doesn't go away, it's just all a bit more urgent when you do make it in! At a practical level, most employers in that type of job still pay, particularly if people do overtime outside their contracted hours as a routine part of their jobs. It's about give and take. The stuff Flowery and I were objecting to is misleading stuff in the media suggesting that you had the absolute right to be paid, which I don't think you do.

Thanks, ribena - I wasn't carping at what you said the state of affairs was, just speculating at the practical implications of it.

Absolutely! (Didn't think you were, don't worry) Often a world of difference between the legal and the practical!

Can i just ask... i know that my employer doesnt have to pay me if i dont get in to work but can they make me take it as holiday?

I only have a few days holiday left for the whole year and dont want to waste them on snow so can I ask to just have the days missed as unpaid rather than holiday?

sazzlelou unless there is a provision in your contract allowing your employer to make you take holiday whenever they like, then no they can't make you take it as holiday. Obviously most people if faced with a choice between unpaid or holiday would choose holiday anyway, but if you don't want to and there's nothing in your contract, you can elect to be unpaid instead.

Thanks flowery... i'm getting married later this yr and so have booked most of my hols already and i really dont want to use the few i've got left in case i need the for other things.