Self employed bookeepers - help!

[RedSonja]

I'm an accountant. Have always been employed working in public/ vol sector. Now want to keep hand in and pay for some training by doing bookkeepiing/ accounts/ finance advice for charities. The aim isn't really to make money, just to stop me getting too out of the loop

I've been talking to a charity about doing their management accounts and they want me to go to there office, same day every week, paid by the hour, use their accounting system, go to their management meetings.

To me this seems like an employment not self employed.

So all you self employed bookeepers out there - how would you handle it.

Sorry to clarify - the charity are wanting to pay me on a self employed basis.

I do this as well for a charity. Is it a problem for you to go into their offices? I find it easier as there is a lot of paperwork and things to discuss with the director throughout the day. As long as you are billing them at your normal rate it doesn't seem like a problem to me. You are just contracting yourself out to them.

Its not a problem for me to go to their offices but the issue is taxation i.e. should they be deducting PAYE?

www.lse.ac.uk/collections/financeDivision/vatGuidelinesAndTaxation/taxation/employedVrsSelfem ployed.htm

have a look at this - I just googled for it - and see if you can answer yes or no to the questions.

One of my clients had an IR inspection a year or so ago - specifically looking at the self employed people.

I had to show that I was a proper business and was given the ok.

One of my current clients is a charity and I do a mixture of on site and remote working - mainly cos they are an hour away and I only do a 4 hr stint.

Thanks for that Tracey K. Looking at this I still think it would be classed as employed. It will be my only job for the forseable future and I will be working on their computer in their premises.

They weren't very keen on the idea of me working from home even though I'm sure a lot of the work can be done from home as its mainly management accounts and finacial management rather than basic book keeping.

That's interesting that you were given the all clear by HMRC. Did they say why? Was it because you have other clients and work from home.

The more I read about this the more bamboozled I'm becoming.

I think it was because I did do work from home and did have other clients and had my equipment at home provided by me. And I think because I arranged outside cover from others when I was on holiday/busy times.

Though the HR freelancer the client was using didn't get the all clear - and she was in a limited company with 2 other directors - was vat registered and everything.

And some of the freelance trainers that the client used - got the all clear - but they only had the client as their only client!

I am self employed and go to clients premises to do the work. I am definitely self employed though as I just charge for the hours I work, by invoice each month, and I have more than one client, sometimes my client base changes etc etc.

You don't have to work from home to be self employed. You don't need to have more than one client either.

Many clients who use self employed book keepers and accountants don't want the work done at the book keepers home as it means information and/or documentation leaving their premises.

Its also much easier for you too as everything and everyone you might need, is there at hand for the time you are working for them.

One of my clients got rid of a previous self employed book keeper as she used to come to the office then take a memory stick home with all their Sage on to work on from home the next day, during which time she'd be emailing him all the time with questions to which she would have had the answers had she been in the office!

When I started out as self employed I only had one client for AGES!! But because I had decided to go self employed and would be looking for other clients, I'd registered with HMRC as self employed.

The PAYE bit you just do on your tax return at the end of the financial year - but you would know this as an accountant...!

But if the client should have treated me as employed then they will be liable for the PAYE plus a fine. Which is why I want to get it right in the first place.

At the mo I can't practise as self employed as need to get PII, practising cert etc. It can be done but I don't want to shell out for that if indeed HMRC would treat it as employed. PLus I don't want to cost them a load of money in fines from HMRC.

Oh just seen your second post FJ. That's very interesting and just goes to show its a bit of a minefield.

Have done a bit more research and have discovered that you can get an opinion from HMRC in advance. Maybe that's the way to go.

Sorry should have said your second post TracyK.

Oh yes forgot to mention I have full Indemnity Insurance thats important if you are self employed and dabbling in anyone else's business stuff (especially their money!!).
And a separate business bank account - all go to show more that I am running a business rather than being employed iyswim.
If any doubts then check with hmrc though as TracyK says.

I did!

RedSonja, I wouldn't bother asking HMRC, on the basis of what you have said that is a position of employment.

If they don't want to have you as an employee you need to tell them gently that they need to contract with you on the basis that you provide them with a service, and you decide how much time it takes you to do the work.

I don't see any problem with working in their office (presumably because that is where the documents are and where you can access the accounting system in order to perform the service), on the same day each week (presumably so that there can be some kind of routine - everyone knows that if they want to ask RedSonja something, they can do it on Tuesday), using their accounting system, or going to their meetings.

A fixed monthly fee would be better for indicating self-employment, and would surely be better for them than an uncertain amount? It could work paid by the hour, but then you would have to make sure that the other indicators (what used to be called the 'badges of trade') all point towards self-employment.

You should check your professional body's requirements for offering this kind of service: some may require a practicing certificate and/or PII.