Finances - does it all add up?

[Knakered]

Am I the only one who seems to be working for about £1.50/hr. I actually earn a very good salary - but take out my childcare costs for 2 (currently running at £85/day from my taxed salary) and I am left with very little. I go on maternity leave soon with number three and am wondering what is the point in returning to work afterwards so that I have job when the youngest starts school?? - in total 8 years of juggling/stress and for no financial gain. Some days I just accept the situation - other days when a minor blip throws the whole balancing act into chaos I feel very dismayed. Does anyone have any tips on how to reduce my childcare costs (currently I have a nanny so this cost should not increase with No 3) or ideas on how to trim our
household bills?

Do you half the child care costs with your partner if you have one? It really should be a joint cost, same as everything else gets halved.

It is ludicrous that child care has to be paid for privately. All child care should be like schools, with the option to go private if you wish.

Could changing from a nanny to a childminder reduce costs? I pay my childminder around £20 a day for 8 hours, many will give a special rate for a second child. Even if they don't then surely £40 a day for two children is better than £85 a day?

OK, you've got to get your kids up and dressed and take them to the minders rather than wait for the nanny to arrive, but its just a question of organisation. The down side of a childminder is that most won't take your kids if they are ill, whereas a nanny is on tap in the home, but quite honestly, the number of times my child has been ill and I've had to have him at home has been minimal.

My little boy enjoys going to his childminder, they have a great relationship and she treats him as one of the family. I consider her to be his second mum during the day. He mixes with a different age range of kids and has a good social life.

And tips for reducing household bills - buy value ranges from the supermarkets, Tesco's value range products are very good; look at transferring any credit cards to ones with good deals - Egg have got a fantastic rate on balance transfers, I believe its actually 0%, Capital One is currently 3%. Look at changing your mortgage - Direct Line are offering a deal where if you transfer your mortgage to them they will pay any redemption penalities. Or talk to your current mortgage lender and see what deals they can do for you. We took a 'holiday' from our pension payments last year which is saving us around £50 a month. We were able to take a year off payments.

Even changing your electricity and gas supplier could shave a bit off your monthly bills.

Hope that gives some food for thought!

Hi Knakered, if there is no real financial gain at the moment have you considered giving up work?

I ask because I am seriously thinking about it at the moment, as life's too short to spend it stressed etc. I have sat down with a spreadsheet and listed what the family spends and its amazing what you can live on if you budget (I hate that word!). Visions of Woolworths and New Look haunt me, but maybe I should lower my standards and revise what really matters. Considering it as a career break for a couple of years rather than a total stoppage of career helps the mindset.

I would be v. interested if anyone has packed up work having gone back initially - is it less stressful in the end? and Knackered, with 3 kids surely you more than anyone deserves a sabbatical as a SAHM for a while?!

Another aspect to Nannies and stress is that as Emmam says while you don't have to deliver your children, you do have to make sure your house (and especially the kitchen)is in a fit state for the Nanny's arrival. I sometimes find this a real strain, especially if you have had friends over for a meal. Sunday evenings are a real struggle to make sure everything is clean and tidy, toys are all put away and so on. Especially as my husband seems to think it is entirely reasonable to leave our son's dirty clothes in small piles all over the house!. Also things like always remembering to leave the food money out, ensuring the car is full of petrol and so on can be a hassle. Not to mention funding the annual elaborate mid week birthday parties.... Of course on the other side of the coin, Nannies do take care of all the food and laundry and so on for the children.

I would certainly look into changing your mortgage - discount rates on offer at the mo are as low as 4% with fixed rates starting from as low as 5%.

I certainly sympathise with you Knakered though as it's a debate I am always wrestling with. A big reason as to why I work is that I know that like Batters if I was at home all day with my 2 year old, I would be a pretty crappy companion for him!

Considering it as a career break I think, Lil, is probably the way to do it. (My company even has a policy whereby they let you have up to 5 years' break, not just for kids, but for any reason, where they will not guarantee a job on return, but consider seriously how to bring you back into the company.)But how easy is that? Does anyone have experience of starting again - it is difficult to get your head back into work? I know it's bad enough after maternity leave. And if you stop, do you then run a much greater risk that no one would want to employ you anyway?

One option is to do some sort of part time course while you're off - then you can present it as though you never really stopped, when you return to work with your shiny new Open University MA.

There've been other discussions about the pros and cons of staying at work on this site - maybe what you need, Knakered, is Melissa Hill's book, The Smart Woman's Guide to Staying at Home recently discussed here! www.melissahill.co.uk

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Thanks for all the advice considering a childminder looks like a good idea - I am having problems with the current nanny and looked at a local nursery which at £105/day for all three is out of the question. I recognise the Sunday night clear up,Bells1, as well as the other end of the week -- I seem to spend my days off peeling squashed peas off the floor and wiping yogurt from the windows. I think though that I am with Lil - on the verge of a career break. I have looked at the parental leave directive and my company (or maybe the gov policy?) allows a maximum of 4 weeks/yr. I have also looked at extended/unpaid leave - my company do not do "career breaks" - and the extended/unpaid leave facility (12months max)is for either study or to care for a sick relative.
I do need to do the speadsheet exercise -- although the thought of it terrifies me!

I hope I'm not too late. Knackered, I so identify with your dilemma. I work 4 days per week (5 days until 2 months ago) have 3 children under 5 yrs and am expecting my 4th. Not surprisingly, I am about to 'hang up my high heels' for good (I hope).

I have juggled and juggled and juggled and I have decided to give up working with the expectation of my 4th child. I know exactly what you mean when a 'blip' sends everything up in to the air - well finally I admitted, I just can't cope.

As I currently earn the lion's share of the family income, I haven't a clue how we're going to manage, but somehow we will.

Financially speaking, this is what I would do if I were you and had a large enough house. Get 2 live-in au-pairs, pay them each about £60 per week and have their services for about 25 hours each per week plus 2 nights free babysitting combined. They could arrange a rota between them to cover your childcare, dropping/picking up from school, cleaning, cooking, feeding, bathing and babysitting needs over the week plus have free-time for themselves to study etc... or something along those lines. I think it could work.

By the way, I ordered the Melissa Hill book yesterday from Waterstones - I think I'm going to need it.

Good luck - I hope everything turns out well.

Madasahatter,I read melissa's book after reading about her here.

It starts out very supportive and she obviously knows what we all think as we prepare to 'hang up our high heels'. The only downside was her chapter on finances. She seems to be convinced that we are all just working to pay off our childcare. I guess its true for you and Knakered, but its not for me and many like me who have only got one child in nursery and contribute equally to the household income. Its a shame there ares next to no strong tips in her book about how to deal with this loss of revenue, and she said the same thing when she was interviewed on mumsnet.

I would be interested to know what anyone else thought of her book. I must say though, that it has proved inspiring in that its good to read about how others have the nerve to leave their jobs, and how to focus on 'what really matters'. I loved her comments on TV. She pointed out that most of us waste hours of hard earnt free time glued to the box, and how useful that time when our children are in bed, can be!

Goodness Lil, I don't know about you but I don't really have much time at all by the time my little one is in bed. I can guarantee that most nights he is asleep by 8pm. I then cook my own dinner, get everything ready for the next day because it is such a rush in the morning. I load the dishwasher and unload the washing machine (not every night but probably every second) and do a bit of tidying. That takes me to 9pm. I then have a choice, I can do an hour's homework (for my course) or I can watch an hour of telly before going up to get ready for bed. Have to be in bed with lights out by 11pm on weekday nights or I start to panic about lack of sleep.
I can't believe that I am alone with this kind of evening pattern, or am I doing something very wrong and should have much more time on my hands in the evening? I sometimes think Melissa Hill lives on a slightly different planet to the rest of us.

But Madasahatter, it's my understanding that Au pair's are not supposed to have sole charge of children particularly as Knakered will have a newborn. I wouldn't be comfortable with this at all.

What a joke to suggest that parents have hours in the evening to watch telly!. As Bugsy says, it is pretty much cook, clean, sort out washing and maybe 30 minutes for reading if you're luncky!.

I think it depends on your au pair, but I'd have to be pretty confident in their abilities to leave them alone for so long, I agree. Another thing, your au pairs would have to come from countries where they didn't need a visa, or they might be refused one for this sort of arrangement, as it doesn't strictly fall under the au pair scheme at all, though I can see how it would work fine for many employers and au pairs.

Oh - I always do the chores the other end of the day i.e. before I go to work, I never have the energy at night. Will have to get organised...Urgh I sound like a SAHM already!

Bugsy, I never used to have much time in the evenings. Like you, I'd feed my son, bath him and put him to bed and then cook our dinner, wash up etc. It was always gone 9pm before I sat down. Then I thought this is daft, why am I cooking two different meals? I now cook one dinner for us all - I eat with our son, and 9 times out of 10 hubby is able to join us. If he's late then I just put his in the oven. While dinner is being digested I do the washing up and then its bath and bedtime. That arrangement has given me an extra hour in the evening, so much so that I am able to work in the evening and earn some extra cash, or enjoy putting my feet up and watching telly.

When hubby is at home the chores are shared, eg he washes up while I bath our child or vice versa. We take it in turns to cook. In the mornings I might sort out the washing and have it ready in the machine to turn on when I come home. As far as cleaning the house, well, a quick hoover and the essential areas cleaned is all that gets done nowadays. The house is clean, but not spotless, but that's OK with me. I only iron work clothes (one hour spent on a Sunday evening) anything else gets put away and is ironed only if its going to worn and by the person who's going to wear it (ie hubby!).

People have to take me as they find me - I have a child, I work full time, my house is never going to look like a show home and I'm not prepared to waste time making it look as such. The necessary gets done and that suits me! (feel the need to add a really childish 'so there'!!!!!)

Yes, I'm another evening house-worker. Lil, I have to disagree with your opinion of yourself,I think you must be very organised to do it all in the mornings.

In order to get both sons to bed before 9.00 pm (or 8.30 pm if I'm lucky), I have to keep a constant eye on the time. Makes it all seem like bit of a race, though.

Really relate to what Emmam is saying about getting one supper only. If I'm not careful, some evenings I'm cooking three, catering for son number 1, son number 2 and us. And I hate cooking. I am currently working on reducing this.

I tend to go to bed at midnight, really not sensible, but I end up looking at some trashy film or catching up on some reading and can't bear to cut it short. To counteract mounting tiredness I try and have an early night mid week.

Having worked for 13 months after having the twins (with a nanny to look after my 4 year old and twins )I've recently chucked it all in to be a sahm. it was an emotional decision, the nanny was constsntly asking for more money as her home circumstances were changing and I just got fed up with the last ultimation and said fine leave if you want there is no mere money in the pot for childcare. I feel so much more relaxed and am really enjoying being at home. I go to the gym 3 times a week , i've joined a book club and even go out in the evening during the week!!!
hubby was very nervous at the prospect of me being at home all the time but so far its great. In september I'm going to do a part time course at the university for a bit of stimulation..

Croppy - I know plenty of au-pairs who have sole charge of children, mine included. I can't afford a Nanny, nor nursery nor childminders on a full-time basis for my 3 cherubs. I was an au-pair in the States and I took sole charge of the girls I looked after.

I understand what you mean about 'newborn' but presumably Knakered will not be going back to work immediately after the babe's born. I also appreciate that you wouldn't like the idea of leaving your children in sole charge of an au-pair. It all depends on our individual circumstances, which are as unique as our fingerprints.

Knakered - My suggestion was a 'starting point' you could arrange a childminder for the babe, and then if the other 2 are at school, you'd probably only need one au-pair. You could even explore the possibilities of working part-time/job-sharing etc etc. Think about your priorities what YOU want and try to honour that as best you can.

For me, finances permitting, I definitely would have stayed at home after the 3rd was born - unfortunately we couldn't (still can't) have afforded luxuries such as food, electricity, gas etc if I didn't work. That's why I am praying for a miracle.

Money-Saving tips? All preceded by 'if you don't already': take packed lunches to work, don't go window-shopping, buy EVERYTHING in cash (you may want to spend less - it does feel harder to part with notes than hand over a credit/debit card) and finally (on the spreadsheet side of things) on paper halve your income (pretend as though you had to) and work out what you would have to give up/what changes you would have to make to stay in the black. I tell you after you've done this you'll feel like a millionaire once you realise your true current income.

I wish you all the best with your new arrival.

Madasahatter, it was actually the concept of paying someone £2.40 an hour to have sole charge of 3 small children that I felt uncomfortable with. Sorry but I just don't think that would be a fair reflection of the level of responsibility involved. The REC do explicitly stipulate that no Au Pair should be left in sole charge of a child under the age of 3.

Cos - go girl! Great to know did the right thing for you and that you're enjoying yourself. I think, in the end, we all have to evaluate what makes us in our own hearts happier, more relaxed, more satisfied as individuals, parents and spouses. I've finally decided that I don't want to be a part of the rat-race, competing ineffectively (handicapped because I'm a mother) against men for promotion/more money, not truly feeling the benefits of slogging away for 35 hours per week etc etc.

Ooh, I just thought of another money-saving tip - do you use One.Tel? - really cheap telephone rates both UK and abroad.

Best way to watch TV is 1) Don't switch it on 2) Decide what is worth viewing from a magazine 3) Watching only what you've chosen or Setting the video to record.

Madasahatter, your money saving tips are brilliant - I thought I was Mrs Scrooge, but there's a couple of things I hadn't thought of there! One thing though, we use OneTel, but it's impossible for overseas calls as you can never get a line, so we ended up spending MORE because we then had to call by horrible BT after all and we weren't in any of their ridiculous Calling Plans any more so the rate was astronomical!

Croppy, remember that the part time au pairs would still get full time full board, which rounds the salary up to a decent amount, and they'd have plenty of spare time for learning English, sightseeing etc. I still think you'd have a problem getting it past visa authorities though, as well as worries over whether you've actually found reliable au pairs.

Sml, I use Onetel and have never had a problem getting a line for O/S calls. Wonder why you have had such bad luck. Onetel has actually just gone bust although - they are still providing services in the UK but I wonder for how much longer. Might be worth investigating Planettalk or whatever they are called.

I think it depends which country you are calling. I find them very good in all other respects, but must do something about the overseas calls before our bills go through the roof!