Resentment of parents in the workplace

[Jraven]

Do you find that non-parents are understanding of you at work? I remember before kids not exactly being sympathetic when colleagues' childcare plans fell apart and they had time off because I guess I just didn't know what it was like - I just thought they should organize themselves better. Now I'm resentful that people don't appreciate that I'm usually incredibly reliable and rarely hungover (unlike most young non-parents in my office) even if it's obvious that kids are my priority. I'm certainly less ambitious than i was pre-kids but that's partly because I've been written off as poor material because I'm a mum, I think.

I think it depends really. There are some skivers who are parents and some skivers who aren't. Likewise there are grafters who are parents and grafters who aren't.

It's funny but nowadays we tend to think of mums taking time off work for domestic things, but when I was little and my mum didn't work, I still always wanted my dad when I had to leave school ill, even though my mum was at home and he didn't need to be there.

I think people would get suspicious if little Jack suddenly got a cold every week! But then, I work at nights.

I get annoyed at people assuming because I am a woman I am not going to put the hours in at work, would they if I was a man? It was the same with people asking me if I was going to quit work just because I had had a baby!

Last week my child was ill and I wasn't able to take him to his childminders at all. I popped into work on the Monday, with child in tow, to pick up some bits to do from home. I had all day Tuesday off, managed to come in for two hours on Wednesday and Thursday while the grandparents looked after him and then managed to work all day Friday. On the whole I found my colleagues were very supportive and asked how things were going. The only comment I had about 'working hard' came from a 25 year old bloke who received a very short comment back.

The only annoying thing is that I had to use up holiday, but again, because I managed to fit in some work I only took half days as holiday, so out of four days off I actually only took 2 days as holiday. (No, I couldn't afford to take unpaid leave).

I think it depends on where you work - we have a lot of women in my particular work place, two thirds of which I'd say have kids, so they've been there, done that and got the (vomit covered) t-shirt.

I think it very much depends on how you're perceived by your employers and colleagues (and after all, in any business things need to get done on time etc). I'm freelance, so it's usually me who takes time off if either of the kids is ill, but my clients are fine and very flexible about me moving meetings etc because they know that I'll work hard to make up time/hit deadlines when it's really important (it has made for some exhausting weeks when I've nursed children all day then worked all evenings and all weekend, but on the whole it's been worth it). My husband works full time for a high tech company with 90-95% male staff (he's a physicist, need I say more?), but they've been OK too. Last week I had to go abroad for 2 days for business, and dd picked those 2 days to be ill so he had to take time off. His boss then came in on his day off to help him catch up when dd was better. In the end it comes down to respect - he knows that my husband is not a skiver, and he also knows that if he had a crisis my husband would putin that bit extra to help him.

Jraven - there is an article in todays Times, section 2, all about this subject. The article is written by Frank Furedi (Paranoid Parenting author). It also has an opinion from a childless worker and a worker with children. Very good reading. In fact, its weird that you posted your piece on the Sunday and this article appeared the next day.

Yes, there is definitely resentment out there for workers who take time off when their kids are sick and think they should have the same when their pets or elderly parents are sick. One girl reckoned her pet rabbit was like a child to her.

Some single childless people apparently think that having children is an indulgence on par with owning a pet!

Just off now to take my darling son for a walk and change his litter tray...

Emmam,leading on from your point, childless workers who have sick pet rabbits, elderly parents etc. have the same legal entitlement as those who have sick children when it comes to taking unplanned time off work. Everyone is covered by the unpaid leave for dependents law. You don't have to have child - just a crisis! Problem is, if previous messages here are anything to go on, not everyone knows about this. Employers aren't keen to tell their workers about this new right. And of course, it's unpaid.

If more working people knew they had a right to unpaid leave for emergencies,(I think it even covers things like a flooding washing machine) then hostility towards absantee working parents might be diffused.

Pets are not an indulgence, they are part of the family LOL!

Some people do see having children as not necessary and I had one because I wanted one, I'm not going to claim it's for the good of society or anything.

All workers can get time off for dependents now, so in theory all workers should get equal time off when needed for something outside of work.

I read somewhere about a company (guess what - owned and run by women!) where they have days which staff can take off and they don't have to think up an excuse or give a reason - I'm sure they were called 'duvet days'. I too look back on my child free days and cringe at how less than understanding I was. However, I don't think I ever actually resented someone for having to take time off for children, I just accepted it and carried on, thanking whatever gods that I didn't have that to worry about!

I am sorry to put such a dampener on all of these positive views adn experiences but I have to say that in my personal experience it is all very well in theory!

I worked in the booktrade for some years and I joined a company as they were taking over another company. From the outset I encountered hostility because being a single parent at the time I started ten minutes before our start time (as everyone did) and left at exactly 5.30. Other people in the company at a more senior level worked longer hours when it suited them but others at my level did not. I was never late and on two occassions I had to leave the premises to collect my daughter from school or her after school club due to illness. In both instances it was made clear that the company was doing me a favour. I should add that in my department there had been two other women with children at the time of the takeover but both were gradually pushed out because it was clear that the company came second to their children. It was very subtle and no one could find actual cause for taking legal action but the undercurrent of instilling resentment (of imaginary concessions) in other members of the staff, etc. was difficult for everyone to deal with. Occassionally we were all asked to work on and I always would (if I could) but my other colleagues made it clear that there families came first and that unless it was obligatory they would not do it. Frankly, this seemed fair enough. Both of these women worked incredibly hard and were very good at their jobs. However, gradually the atmosphere became more and more stressful and both women left. As the only person with children in the department I negotiated fewer hours for three months whilst in the final stages of an M.A. The price I paid for this was to be overlooked for promotion when everyone agreed the promotion should have been mine.

Two years later I informed my employers that I was pregnant and due to high blood pressure needed weekly antenatal visits. I was prepared to do some of this out of work time but was infuriated when asked to use holidays or sick time, or even unpaid leave. This was presented to me as a 'good turn'on my employers part! It was all very well midwives and friends telling me I had rights but I had to tread very carefully in order not to jeopardise my maternity pay!

Needless to say my pregnancy was extremely stressful in an environment where if I stopped to go to the loo (which I admit I did frequently in the early months) a comment would be made about how easy it is for pregnant women to skive yet others would lounge around chatting or write e-mails to friends, surf the net etc.,

The consequence was I took maternity leave as soon as I could and decided I would not return to that company. It was horrendous with one child and it would be worse with two.

Writing about this makes me extremely angry. The department has chosen not to employ any one with children since and hostility to the women with children was blatant. My manager was a woman with no children and her manager was a man who made it clear his wife had given up her job to be with their children and that was how it should be.

I was so exhausted in my pregnancy that I was coming home from work and going to bed at the same time as my eleven year old. Whereas other people (including the manager) did not hide the fact that they'd taken a sickie because they'd had a hangover or went to Glastonbury or 'couldn't be bothered' I was using holidays to care for my daughter if she was ill. My time off became an issue despite the fact that I was having less time off than others!

My point is that with a child in this particular work environment I was a target. I had little choice but to accept it because I needed to stay where I was (particularly whilst pregnant). At the point when I was asked to take early 'maternity leave because of my health' (which would have meant I lost all of my entitlements by a week) I knew I wasn't simply being paranoid. Despite the high blood pressure my health was actually fine and I stuck it out but I am sorry to say I don't thinkk my experience is unique. It has made me extremely nervous about returning to a new work place.

What a horrible story Winnie. I think you are right though on how women with children are often pushed out. A painfully shy friend of mine finally managed to negotiate a 3 day week at her accounting firm after having a baby. Out of the blue, it was suddenly decreed that she would have to deliver a series of 15 hour long lectures to around 30 of her colleagues at the end of the summer. The preparation for the lectures will all have to be done in her own time. Needless to say, she is already stricken by fear at the prospect. To me it seems like a clear case of trying to edge her out.

TV Programme About working Mothers

I work for the BBC and have been looking at this site with interest. Justine Roberts has given me permission to use this forum to trawl for volunteers, so here goes! I am trying to find a mother with 2 or more children who works full time outside the home. If you are interested in talking to me, with a view to possibly taking part in the programme, then please give me a ring on 0161-244-3940, and I will ring you straight back.
Thanks very much
Kristin

Isn't that typical? Why not working dads on this programme?

Apart from all the time we need off for antenatal etc, and the recovery time after the birth (and of course it varies person to person) , really being a working mother should be no different to being a working dad.

Yes, it SHOULD be, but taking a look at these boards shows you it actually isn't the general experience! I wonder if the BBC would be brave enough to do 'a year in the life of' documentary 'undercover' if you like, which would show the hypocrisy you have to put up with as a parent in the workplace. Not only do you have the earthmothers screeching that you should be at home, you have the executive tarts shrieking that you cannot have it all, and thats without even considering the people who can make or break your career, who really put the 'p' in prima donna when you mention the word 'child and time off' in the same sentence!! Unless of course its followed by 'unpaid'!

Kia, you are absolutely right in acknowledging that parenting is a joint responsibility & that employers SHOULD take this on board but don't. My partner and I have equal imput into our childrens lives. He always mentions the children on his CV but has never been asked about childcare arrangements etc. There is simply the assumption that this is the mothers responsibility. It shouldn't be like this but this is often how it is.

Interesting topic. I'm just comming out of the other side of morning sickness and that eary tiredness that makes you want to weep. I found the least sympathetic person was a friend who is also pregnant - she did not have bad sickness.
I also found this last time when I was really struggling. The men I worked with were symathetic in a vaguely embarassed sort of way. Women who had kids, and who had not had bad sickness were incredibly unsympathetic, giving me no help at all, less help than normal if anything.
I could hardly keep my eyes open and wanted to die with sickness, I have never been so ill in my life. Even after a long labour and a 'section I felt better than with that early sickness.

This time has been OK but last time I felt the people who I expected to support me were positivly hostile.

No matter how good and supportive you partner is he can't share that - believe me if there was a way I'd have found it.

On an even more depressing note I worked with someone who was edged out of her job while pregnant. She went on maternitly leave and someone else was appointed to her job. When she retuned she was offered work of a 'similar nature' that wasn't. Life was made really difficult for her and in the end she left. The union advised that she had a case "but you know how these things go..". She'd never work again if she lost so what do you do?

Snowy, sympathy on the sickness front. I was exactly the same. My sister was also bad, and one of her most unsympathetic 'friends', a female doctor, repeatedly told her she was pregnant, not ill. However, you reap what you sow. When said friend became ill she suffered excessively! It's the only time I've ever been glad when someone suffered sickness.
I agree with the after bit though. I felt much better after both of my births than my friends who had easy pregnancies, and the 1st birth in particular was not good. I was also used to not leaving the house without bags full of paper bags (for being sick), barley sugar sweets etc etc , so carry the baby stuff round was not such a shock.

Snowy, I know what you mean about women who didn't suffer being the most unsympathetic! My mum never had morning sickness, and is totally convinced that it is 'all in the mind'. Luckily I didn't suffer either (must be in the genes!) but my stepsister-in-law had it really badly, and is now firmly established in my mum's mind as a malingering wimp, which is really unfair. I once worked with someone who had to be admitted to hospital for hyperemesis in the early stages of pregnancy - I'm positive that that wasn't all psychosomatic!

Just wanted to draw interested people's attention to the "Parents at Work" conference in London on 16th June. Line up looks quite good. flametree.co.uk has the dets.

I have definitely found resentment in the workplace from other women. Generally, the men I work with are fairly sympathetic to child related problems. Often they have their own kids and like to feel that they know what you are talking about or if they don't they just seem to get less hassled about things than childless women do.
I think that there are some women out there who have made a conscious decision to not have children and concentrate on their career and that they possibly feel a bit threatened when they meet women with children who are also managing to have a successful career too.
Anyhow, that is just my own private theory.

Bugsy agree wholeheartdly with what you say. Your observations on men an women at work mirror my own.

Just like to add that in my experience, males higher up the managerial ladder tend to see each employee as a profit unit first and foremost.

Winnie, I can really relate to your story. If I was not at work I would say more.

I have just been asked to teach women returners how to use the Internet! It was blocked into 6 one hour sessions. I said it won't take that long, I only have to tell them how to click a button I said. I turned it down though because I am no teacher and I am more interested in why so many women stop working and how to keep them in the work place than how to get them back there.

Gracie I've been wondering if there was some way we could help your friend, but it seems that she needs some self esteem more than practical help producing perfect presentations. I've been looking at all kinds of courses with her in mind but it takes money and takes time, of course! Perhaps she could try a hypnotherapist who could help boost her confidence in the short term and look for another job in the long term. I was looking at the other board about the LETS bartering scheme and wondered if mumsnet could do something like it online. We already do advice and gossip - perhaps we could try something a bit more practical to help people like Gracie's friend beat the shysters of this world at their own game!

Kia - what a great idea!. It seems to me that so much of women's angst over their choices relates back to their own self-esteem/ confidence and ultimately, how happy they feel with their lives. I'm sure some practical support and help from women in similar positions would be great.

I know I'm treading on dangerous ground here, but I must say that JBR's seeming inability to accept that the choice of a parent to stay at home in order to look after their child is a valid one, almost suggests that she is not 100% happy with the balance in her own life.

I know that many working mothers have a shocking time in the workplace through both covert and open hostility towards anything to do with their children. To me the only answer is to be supremely confident that you are doing a very good job and that your employer is getting a great deal by having you on their team. Of course this in turn depends upon being happy with the choices you have made in your life - easier said than done!!.

As far as my friend Clare is concerned, there's not much anyone can do for her I'm afraid. She is literally paralysed by the thought of public speaking and is desperately looking for another job.

I love Mumsnet because despite a comment that the site is "anti-women" it is in fact the opposite PRO-WOMEN. It is pro parents and pro choice and I have to say that since discovering Mumsnet and the support, encouragement and advice that can be found here I feel more empowered and far less isolated as a mother! To know that there is a world of people out there struggling to get the balance right and to bring up their children to their best abilities despite the myriad of hurdles there are to climb is great! Perhaps I sound OTT but nevertheless, by reading posts such as yours Gracie & Kia, as well as many others on this site, my belief in humanity is strengthened. I see a diversity of opinion, political and otherwise on this site (which is incredibly healthy) but I also see a network of individuals all with a common goal. Perhaps in our own small ways we are already providing that practical support by simply logging on and adding our voices!

Hear hear Winnie!. When my addiction to Mumsnet began, as a full time working mum with a fairly demanding job, I was wary. I had assumed that I would face at the minimum implied criticism from SAHM's over my choice. Aside from the odd isolated comment, it hasn't been the case at all. Most parents who have chosen to be at home to look after their children on the site seem to have a very balanced view, feeling that whatever is best for your family is fine.

I truly believe that the path to equality for working women can only be achieved through us being supportive of all parents - regardless of how they choose to arrange their lives in order to bring up their children. It's all about feeling happy with the choices you have made and this will never be helped by sniping between parents.

That is a great idea Kia. Don't you find you're already doing it a bit? Since I joined mumsnet I must have told six people about the xylitol thing, and downloaded stuff about the MMR to pass on to friends and colleagues, and recommended the site to ALL my friends who are parents. Gracie, try and get Clare to spend a moment to see the site, it won't solve her problem, but it might help her realise that the workplace is full of people facing the same challenges with her, and reacting to her predicament with sympathy and indignation. And then I think we should send Tigger or Croppy to do the lectures instead.
I think it's great that Justine and Carrie are starting to be asked onto the radio to represent the views of mums in today's society. I think there is great scope for what goes on here to be brought to the attention of policy-makers. If characters like Ruth Lea (Institute of Directors, consistently and vocally against any legislation to improve the lot of parents) can get the media exposure, why can't we. I sometimes look round the carriage in the morning and wonder how many people are parents as well as me. And then I wonder what would happen if we all just walked out of our jobs and stayed home until the government gave tax breaks to meet the cost of childcare/or a really decent payment to parents who choose to stay home.
I went on a huge march about ten years ago to support my m-i-l's village which was due to be annihilated by a high speed railway line. It was a brilliant day, loads of media coverage, united all sorts who would not normally band together, and it did the trick (alongside other lobbying tactics of course). What would happen if we started something like the Million Moms in the USA and campaigned actively for a fairer financial deal for all choices of parenting?
Feeling fired up by Winnie's and Kia's words!