work travel - own time?

[halia]

hi all, I'd appreciate some other points of view here after a tense 'discussion' with my partner.
DH works for a large company with offices around the UK, however like all of his colleagues he is based at one office and was recruitd to work there not on a 'company wide basis'. Since he has moved up the company tree he has been required to travel more often and accepts this as a requirement of the job, however its really starting to P* me off. Its not the travel its the fact that he does it often in his own time.

For example, his office is 30 minutes away from home. That commute he signed up for and is part of normal getting to work. However if he is needed at office Y which is 1hr 10mins away he will just set off earlier so doing that extra travelling in his own time. In some cases that means going to office z which is 3 hrs away!

So basically that means that every time he goes to another office the company is getting 1-5 hours of his time for free.

This happens at least once a week and sometimes up to 4 times a week.

On top of that he seems to have no control over his workload, so if the company want him in office Z on a monday morning for 9am he can't/won't turn round and say - that means travelling down on sunday evening in my own time and I won't do that cos it messes up my family time. His dairy gets changed on a daily basis by other people who overbook meetings and send him from office z to office Y to office X all in one day without factoring travel.

He frequently travels 1-3 hrs for a meeting only to have other people not turn up.

It just feels like they are exploiting him and quite frankly I feel he is being a bit of a wuss. He is now in senior management and my own view is that no-one will take you seriuosly if you are always running around and saying Yes to everything other people want.

And it means that our family / personal time always seems to come a poor second.

Today is an example, he was suppoused to take the day as annual leave - but only booked half a day because of a meeting someone arranged last thing on friday. Then I was told last night that the meeting was now at office Z and so instead of a morning relaxing and having coffee together he would have to leave at 9.15am in order to get to this meeting in time.

How can I make this work better? he has been told twice by his GP that he needs to take some time off because he is badly stressed and its affecting his health. But he just keeps telling me that he can't take time off.

It sounds like there are several issues here.

The need to travel to other offices would normally be expected to be done on your own time. Not necessarily fair, but that's the general rule of thumb. However, what is written into the employment contract is important. Employers tend to word them in such a way that allows them to require you to work from time to time on other sites. If the requirement to travel is becoming really unreasonable, surely some negotiation can be done - eg if have to leave x hours earlier to make a meeting, then clock off a bit earlier. Got to remember too that even though it only takes your dh 30 mins to his normal place of work, he probably has colleagues who commute from much further afield, so extended commutes are always treated with huge sympathy.

The issue about other meeting attendees not turning up can be addressed through better organisation. An email reminder two days before, a phone call the day before, that sort of thing. If it happens again, ask for the meeting to be held locally.

The stress/health issue does sound worrying. Not sure what to suggest here. I'm sure if you were able to put less pressure on your dh by lowering your expectations, that would help. I'm sure if the economic situation were better, and jobs were more secure, he might feel able to negotiate more, but there is probably only a limited amount he can achieve at the moment, and he probably doesn't feel much like sticking his neck out.

Travelling for work like this would normally be done in his own time, yes, particularly if he is senior management. Travelling a bit further a couple of times a week sounds absolutely fine to me. As senior management I expect he doesn't get paid overtime if he is working in the office longer than 9-5 either, it's part and parcel of being more senior and getting paid accordingly.

It sounds as though the fact that he is expected to travel a bit further sometimes isn't the issue at all, or at least it shouldn't be. It sounds as though he needs to stand up for himself about meeting arrangements and attendance by others. It's not a case of not being paid for the time spent getting to these meetings, that's not the issue, it's a case of him asserting himself a bit more, taking control of his diary a bit more as well. There may be a system where people can electronically book things in for him, but he needs to control who can do this, and surely if he is already booked for one meeting, someone can't unbook it without his permission? Similarly unless there is a crucial reason for meetings to be at x time on x day, if they clash with something else, he ought to be able to reschedule.

Now he is more senior, depending on what his job is and what the circumstances are, it may well eat into family life a bit more. Without knowing more, it's impossible to say how much of this would be 'normal' or justified. But it doesn't sound surprising.

It also sounds as though it might not be anyone 'exploiting' him deliberately, just that he's at the level where if something isn't convenient or causes a problem, he is expected to say so and deal with it, iyswim? If he isn't saying anything, it may not be occurring to anyone that it could be a problem.

I agree with Flowery. But I'd say it works both ways - if I'm expected to do the extra travelling, long hours etc, I would also expect to be able to build in a little flexibility - eg no early meetings on Monday morning that involve travelling on Sundays.

But it should be a two way process and your DH should be putting boundaries in place without taking away from the effort level expected of him as a senior member of the team.

I get the point about after a certian salary level you don't just do 9-5, I expect 50-60 hr weeks, what gets me is that it seems to be progressive. You get a promotion and you are working 40-50 hr weeks, then you get a little bit more salary and you have to work 50-60 hr weeks - however this actually reduces your hourly rate because you are doing LOTS more hours for only a BIT more money.

One particular week if we took into account the travel time, weekend working, late evenings etc his actual takehome hourly rate was only just above the minimum wage.

My view is that if he's actually getting the equivilant of £5-7/hr then its not that highly paid.

I also think that if you are expected to use your holiday time to travel to a meeting (which was booked without checking with you first) then there ought to be a bit of flexibility for you later on. ie you get to the meeting on time but once that meeting is over you can go home at 4pm.
If you are frequently online and replying to company emails at 12 midnight, it should be OK to get into the office for 9.30am one day a week so you can drop your toddler off at preschool.

If he loved the job I wouldn't have a problem - but he hates it.

As far as the scheduling side of things goes he just tells me that he can't do anything about it. He doesn't have anyone 'managing' his diary - its available on the shared servers and anyone can book things into it. There's no mechanism to prevent you from booking time that is already allocated. They don't even have to wait for confirmation from him before they book it.
If someone doublebooks a meeting which clashes with a preplanned event that's in
his diary its not them who gets it in the neck when he can't be in two places at once.

How can I support him, and encourage him to start acting like a senior manager and putting boudries in place? I find it very difficult to ignore the impact on family life (including explaining to a 4yr old why daddy isn't home again) and the impact on his health. And saying "oh thats OK dear" if he tells me he will be away overnight again feels like I'm saying that I dont' care whether he is here or not.
I'd far rather be much poorer and have him around more.

This is a bit like AIBU by stealth!

From your thread title and your OP it sounded as though a few people needed to be a bit more organised with meetings, and that you were expecting your DH to get paid extra for sitting in the car or on the train for a bit longer a couple of times a week.

From your last post, there is an issue. It's not travelling to work in his own time that's the issue at all though.

You are absolutely right that if he is working that much there ought to be a bit of flexibility occasionally to reflect that, and the examples of leaving a bit early or going in later occasionally following lots of extra the day or couple of days before ought to be ok if there is no good reason for not doing so. Has he actually tried to do that though? Has anyone actually said that's not acceptable, or is he just not trying?

The scheduling issue is clearly not working, and can't be working for others either. It's ridiculous that anyone can book something in his diary without his confirmation and even if there is something else already in there. What's he doing about it? That's not workable and as a senior manager he can do something about that, raise it as an issue in management meetings, for example. Regardless of his personal circumstances that can't be an efficient way for the company to work as a whole.

Having said that, if someone double books him, he should be contacting the person and standing up for himself a bit more, pointing out that he is not available for that time and rearranging as appropriate. Again, he shouldn't be just accepting it.

In terms of supporting him to act like a senior manager and put boundaries in place (you've hit the nail right on the head with that sentence), it's difficult to say how you can do more than I presume you are doing really. Why do you think he is reluctant to do that? Is he concerned about his job, are there redundancies looming or anything?

If he hates his job anyway is there any kind of plan for what to do about that? Working this hard in a job he hates doesn't sound very sustainable to me and will certainly impact on all of you. Is he looking elsewhere at all?

If your DH is in senior management, he is not employed on a time basis but a do-whatever-it-takes-to-get-the-job-done basis. His time management is his problem, not his company's. But he could ask for some time management training.

I'd also add that if all these people have access to his diary, then they should be able to see that he's already booked and as the senior person, I'd be tempted to make some comments to the team about their unrealistic ability to manage such things?

No one, not even my completely psycho boss expects anyone to be able to be in two places at once and so it shouldn't be taht simple to send an email saying, "Mike, I see you've put in a meeting for wednesday at 9. Unfortunately, my diary already has a meeting at 9:15 in London that day so that's not practical. Can we please arrange a different time? I am available on Thursday in the morning or anytime Friday afternoon."

there is a plan - we get the house sold and he gives his notice in - we can then manage easily on me going back to work f/t.

I will chat to him again about the boundaries thing, that is the real heart of it. Its not that he is expected to work lots of hours or lose holiday time its that other people he works with frequently take long holidays, aren't in the office, and miss meetings whilst he runs around beating himself up if he can't get from leeds to london in 30 minutes.

I think I'll compose him some rote replies:
Hi, I'm sorry but the meeting you have booked for X overbooks a prearranged meeting I already have in my diary for Y. If it is important that I am present for your meeting can we reschedule it - you can see my available times in my diary but to clarify I am free at A B and C this week/next week."

"Hi, just to confirm attendance at the meeting today/tommorrow at X time/venue. Please let me know asap if this meeting has been cancelled or if you are unable to attend"

general memo "to everyone who books me into meetings - at the moment my diary is very busy and I am frequently in office Y or Z rather than home base office X. I am happy to conduct VOIP meetings form any location but please take note of my diary scheduling and location for that day when booking me into meetings. If the time you want to book is already blocked out please contact me to discuss rearrangement. I confirm my attendance at all meetings via email. For meetings booked considerably in advance I would appreciate confirmation/agenda being forwarded to me x days beforehand."

Those replies sound just right, and I'm pleased you do have a long term plan to remove him from this situation as well, good luck with it

Be carefull halia. I know its hard but my best friends marriage has just gone fut over this very issue.

She sounded just like you in her posts.

her DH was stressed and busy but he couldnt handle her lack of support and constant demands for attention for her and their three boys.

her DH left 12 months ago and now they are getting divorced. He too was senior manangement and earned well but worked very long days. The job was his way of proving something ( came from a very poor background and did exceedingly well ).

he felt she was trying to take it away from him so he went.

Dont undermine him.

I dont mean to sound critical. My dH announced yseterday he was flying abroad at 7pm tonight and will be back late tomorrow. He is supposed to finish at 12 noon on a Friday. He wont get any of that time back. Its just the way it goes and in todays job world its no good making a fuss.

I would try and encourage him to take some time management courses as Flowery says. That will probably help him on the assertive issues.

Good luck.

I get your point mummypoppins, DH actually has a similar background. I do try and support him despite the tone of my post - this was me letting of steam afterall!

However if it came to that and he prefered to leave me and DS and stay in his job because we wanted to see him more then I'd actually feel we were better off without him.

As I said earlier if he loved it and was quite happy being assertive about his need for effective working from his team I'd feel differently.

Going to sit down and have a good talk - float variuos alternatives to him.

Well done. I didnt mean to sound negative but it sounded so similar to my friend. She now sees the errors she made but its too late.

hope the talk went well. If you need to sound off steam here feel fee. I have done so in the past!