Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Work

Chat with other users about all things related to working life on our Work forum.

Original poster

fuckity fuckity feck!! DPs employee has fallen off ladder and potentially broken arm

33 replies

LEMAGAIN · 23/03/2009 16:19

The guy is self employed and subcontracting to my DP. DP has employee liability on his public liability insurance. It was an accident, ladder is in working order - think the guy overstretched or something. Have no idea if my DP will be liable for this or not - please God not, this will finish the business once and for all What, if anything, should we do?

The guy is fine, he insisted on carrying on working despite my DP offering to take him to hospital but his arm got worse so DP took him in. Waiting on him to call DP to pick him up. The guy is a nice bloke apparently and a good worker. Is there any health and safety issues ive missed here - it was a step ladder, only from about 6ft i think, only arrrggghhhhhh

Shitting my pants to be honest.

OP posts:
Original poster
LEMAGAIN · 23/03/2009 16:20

When i say the guy is an employee, he is a mate of DPs who is doing some painting/labouring for him.

OP posts:
StercusAccidit · 23/03/2009 16:26

All i know is that your DP did right by taking him to hospital
Don't know anything else, sorry, but hope this bumps it for you

Original poster
LEMAGAIN · 23/03/2009 16:35

thanks stercus - its worse than we thought, the arm is broken and needs pinning!!! bollocky bollocky bollox!!!!! My DPs liability insurance covers him to have someone work for him up to 50 days a year and the guy hasn't worked for him for that long (phew) but anyway, from what DP has just told me, it was the guys fault. Not really, accidents happen, but he was technically using the ladder incorrectly so that would surely mean its not DPs responsibility?? We just soooooo do not need this Don't get me wrong, im sorry for the guy - he has just come off of benefits to work with DP, doing it all ligit so no money coming in for him at all - maybe he will be able to get sick money from the DSS??

why can't life be fucking simple!

OP posts:
Original poster
LEMAGAIN · 23/03/2009 16:59

bump bump bump

OP posts:
StercusAccidit · 23/03/2009 18:03

Sorry can't be more helpful

Bumping again

OrmIrian · 23/03/2009 18:11

I don't see why your DP is liable. My DH was a self-employed carpenter sub-contracted to the same company most of the time, but if he hurt himself it was his problem not the company's. May be wrong.

OrmIrian · 23/03/2009 18:16

DH just confirmed what I thought. Sad for chap but not your liability.

Original poster
LEMAGAIN · 23/03/2009 18:17

thanks orm, thats kind of what im thinking and certainly how i would be reacting if it was my DP who had broken his arm - but you know how it is with those "injured at work?" ads etc, i just want to make sure we are covered. I think im overreacting somewhat - ohh, i need a cuddle!!!

OP posts:
Original poster
LEMAGAIN · 23/03/2009 18:18

yes, im sad and worried for the guy too - he is a single parent not what he needs considering he went ligit to work for DP and it will be hell trying to get his benefits re established. Should we offer him some money? Not that we can afford it

OP posts:
islandofsodor · 23/03/2009 18:18

If he is a genuine subcontractor then he should have his own public liability insurance and canonly sue you if your dp provided sub-standard equipment or did something dangerous and this would be covered via your public liability not employee liability.

However as a main contractor it is your responsibility to check that he holds insurance and really you shouldn't have let him set foot on site without sight of his certificate. I am wondering as you say he is recently off benefits if he doesn;t have insurance etc. In which case you shouldn't be treating him as self employed. Has he been trained in working at heights and was anyone footing the ladder?

What sort of work was he doing, domestic or commercial. If the latter your dp should have checked his CIS status too.

Whizzz · 23/03/2009 18:20

Well it is likely to only be a problem if the bloke decides to try & claim against your DP. In order to be successful he would have to prove that your DP had a duty of care to him, that the duty of care was absent (ie your DP was negligent) & that the negligence caused the injury.
If your DP had provided the ladder in good working order, suitable instruction about how to carry out the task & had risk assessed the job I'm guessing any prosecutors wouldn't find too much at fault.

Original poster
LEMAGAIN · 23/03/2009 18:22

island - he is definately off benefits, he did do a few weeks here and there for DP in the past but has been in the process of sorting this out with DP recently so definately off benefits. That is a good point about his own public liability though - im not sure about this as my DP does only hold public liability which covers an employee for up to 50 days, oh this is so confusing - what i don't want to do is open a whole can of worms if you see what i mean. He does, i think have CIS (i think - we were going to sort that, but he is invoicing us for the work - so not technically an employee of DPs i suppose - he has literally only worked for him a few weeks and this is just getting sorted out now. Arrrghhhhhhh

Wasn't working at heights though, was a step ladder, he was glossing a picture rail, but is that technically at heights with the need for someone footing the ladder, because they weren;t.

OP posts:
Original poster
LEMAGAIN · 23/03/2009 18:24

whizz - risk assessed the job - Bangs head on desk!! oh god - he was painting the fecking wall FFS!! but yeah i know - you have to risk assess every sodding thing dont you

OP posts:
whoingodsnameami · 23/03/2009 18:25

Afraid so, you need to do a risk assessment for lifting a light box fgs, its all very complicated for employers now, am surprised they actually have any time to do any work.

islandofsodor · 23/03/2009 18:32

I wasn't doubting the benefit side, its just that they are really tightening the rules as to who is a subbie and who is an employee these days. Own insurance is a must as is financial risk (which generally means quoting for jobs rather than being paid an hourly rate) and being able to provide a substitute worker if he wished to.

The Inland Revenue would prefer everyone was on PAYE rather than invoicing.

If it's any help tomorrow I'll have a look at our ladders generic risk assement for you.

If you havn't verified him under CIS yet you need to deduct 20% tax when you pay him.

Original poster
LEMAGAIN · 23/03/2009 18:57

thanks sodor, i appreciate it

OP posts:
Whizzz · 23/03/2009 19:16

Also to add an injury of that severity is also reportable to the HSE under the RIDDOR regs - althuogh it seems a bit unclear of the exact relationship employer/employee / contractor

Whizzz · 23/03/2009 19:19

LEMAGAIN- even for 'just' painting a wall, potential hazards include working at height(!), the paint inself, not forgetting any other tools he may use to scrape walls. use of ladder, potential for uneven floor etc

OrmIrian · 23/03/2009 19:46

I think this is odd. DH provided all his own tools. THat is normal afaik. So if he fell off his own stepladder it would be his problem. So surely anyone self-employed has no claim against those for whom he was working at the time?

kc3 · 23/03/2009 19:54

I think the whole issue is how the man is going to deal with it. He maybe a genuine guy who realises accidents do happen. If not this could be a Health and Safety nightmare. It would definately have to be reported to HSE who would expect all relevant documents to be in place signed induction, risk assessment, method statement. If he is working as sub-contract you would need a copy of his insurance, invoices from him bearing some financial outlay, ie supplying materials. Also I think CIS is the old system all contractors now need to have a UTR number, if they have not then you need to stop 30% tax until they are registered to the UTR system.

Whizzz · 23/03/2009 20:38

OrmIrian - well I think you would have cause for concern if you were self employed & working in a company that for example had loads of hazards around (eg painting a wall near where there were moving FLTs) - the company should make sure that nothing they do will cause harm to contractors, self employed, vistors, public etc
A company also had a duty to ensure any contractors they use have decent equipment, are properly trained etc

islandofsodor · 23/03/2009 20:39

It's called New CIS kc3. A sub-contractor provides a UTR number plus National insurance number or company registration if a limited company.

You then verify them with the Inland Revenue, we do it online or you can phone a special number, and they give you their tax status which is either gross (you don't deduct tax) or standard (you deduct 20%).

You then have to enter any payments made to subcontractors on a monthly return detailing how much if any tax has been stopped.

It sounds complicated but is actually MUCH simpler than the old CIS 4/5/6 card and voucher system.

kc3 · 23/03/2009 21:04

sodor - thanks for that. My husband has own building company but I only listen with half and ear. With the New CIS if the subbie is yet to get a UTR number is it then 30% deduction - like an emergency tax? I could be taking rubbush though - sorry to go off topic OP.

OrmIrian · 23/03/2009 21:04

Ahhh things have moved on a great deal I suspect. As it was DH was constantly being pestered to change his employment status. As if it was down to him

Original poster
LEMAGAIN · 23/03/2009 21:06

This guy has just registered for CIS - i was going to look into it all for DP but he said not to worry as he was just going to invoice DP for the money paid etc. This is waaaay too much for me

OP posts: