Have any part-timers been able to secure anything other than a pro-rata salary arrangement...?

[enraha]

Would appreciate a bit of a discussion about this. As I think a lot of employers get a rather good deal out of productive part-time mums.

Was very much on a career-track prior to M.Leave. I do an office-based job, am obviously not able to be as flexible and time-generous as before, but still add a lot of value and experience, yet have taken a significant pay-cut to spend 2 days a week with DD.

Not having a moan/entitlement-trip, but just finding the financial pro-rata formula a bit on the blunt side and may have to reconsider my choice to go back.

Anyone in the same boat (and made it work)?

Enraha, I don't really see what you mean and I think your issue is perhaps that you are not happy at work and have other issues, rather than just the one of salary. It may be your experience that you consider that you have had to cow-tow and be grateful for working part-time but it wasn't mine! I dropped to four days before flexible working was formally introduced so didn't go through the procedure now in place but I was never made to feel like I was in any way less a part of the company than those who worked full-time. By your reckoning however, you dont want to be treated equally with those who work full-time but actually want preferential treatment by being paid more!

Also it's not just women who get a "crappy deal" on part-time salaries. A man dropping to part-time will be pro-rata'd in exactly the same way.

I agree with the other posters - it isn't out of line for your employer to pay on the basis of hours actually worked! Issues around part time work do effect women more then men - because women take up the option to work part time more. That we can do so with (in most industries) relative ease is a big plus but I really don't think the majority of employers think they are doing women a huge favour by allowing part time hours. They know they get value for money - and that's what we should expect. You do seem to be expecting a 'bonus' for being a working parent - and it ain't going to happen! Not in financial terms at least.

Good luck looking for a new job - I really think that's the way to go and hopefully would improve a lot of things for you.

To Annh: No, I said I wanted a discussion . I have a lot of friends in similar positions in other companies.

It's well known that women earn less than men, even when adjusted for the part-time factor. I never said anywhere that I expected 100% of a full-time salary. Right now I just find it galling to be earning what I was earning over 10 years ago. It's unfortunate, and drawing from my own experience - in my industry, it's probabbly why there's a shortage of competent people in their 30s, who happen to be women.

Ok now I'm confused!

Are you doing the same job as pre maternity leave but with pro rata salary for three days a week so that your total earnings equal what you earned working full time at a lower level 10 years ago - in which case I would say - welcome to working part time - less hours means less pay!

or have you had to take a lower paid job to get part time hours? In which case I can see why you are pissed off.

Isn't your issue with people who work "harder" than others rather than part-timers doing same amount of work as full-timers (in some cases)? Part-timers are more expensive for companies anyway - same overheads (desk, chair etc)but less productive.

i work for LA - there are loads of part timers all paid pro-rata full -time rates . would be unfair to pay full -time rate if they dont work full time as suggested above ...maybe compressed hours type arrangement prehaps ?

Enraha, ten years ago you were working 5 days a week and now you are working 3, though?

yes, but with 10 years less experience and not as good at winning new business, looking after clients and so on.

Anyway, bed time for me. Hard day at the office tomorrow.

In my last post I managed a large team and the staff (female and male) had a variety of flexible hours: part-time contracts, compressed hours, full time, job-share. It wasn't just 'inconvenient' it was a nightmare to manage. Trying to arrange team meetings was always difficult. Having a serious day-long planning session took months of negotiation. Yet I saw that my job as manager was to make it all work and to take extra time to make sure everyone was involved and knew about everything that was going on in the department.

Amongst that group I had some people on less-than full time hours who gave a lot in terms of energy and commitment, and I had one in particular who didn't (and who took work time off for all dental appointments, doctors appointments etc). It was my job to manage the difference in performance. I also had full time staff who covered the same spectrum.

But what really pissed me off was when people felt it was their right to work the hours that they chose. Guess what - everyone working compressed hours wanted Monday or Friday off, never a Tuesday. Several people wanted to work hours so that they could leave early and no-one wanted to work the late hours. Yes I had a genuine responsibility to try and find creative ways to make flexible working work but my first priority was to make sure I could provide a service to our customers.

As a working mother myself, and carer for an elderly parent, I think I have more than "a shred of humanity" and certainly empathy for the pressures people are under. But people need to get real about working - sometimes, yes, we are lucky to have jobs, even sometimes jobs that pay us well and are rewarding, and also where possible jobs that can accommodate our needs for flexibility. And that applies to female, male, full-time, or otherwise, parents and non-parents.

OK rant over.

cat64, that is a good point about the tax.

I don't know about you Enraha, but as a part time employee I have the same amount of CPD to do as a full time employee to keep my professional qualification.

My employer pays the same for me and gives me the same amount of time to do my CPD as a full time employee. Both of which they don't have to do. So in that respect I get a much better deal than my full time employees.

I'm coming a bit late to this but would like to make a couple of points.

Firstly, it has not been decreed that flexible working is a right for parents. Businesses must consider a request, but as long as they follow the correct procedure, there are fairly broad business reasons they can give to refuse if they want to.

Secondly, I really can't see any logic for wanting to be paid pro rata more because you are part time. You can't have it both ways. If you are lucky enough to have an employer that can accommodate part time working for you then asking for a pay rise as well is pushing it a bit.

In terms of being more productive, it's all about the individual. Some full timers are very productive, working many hours over and above their contract and/or being more productive than others during the normal day. Some clock watch, don't get much done and are off at 5.01pm. Similarly with part timers, there are some of both.

In my personal experience, coming from environments where 9-5 was a notional concept on a contract rather than actual working hours, for senior staff anyway, part timers have usually worked less hours pro rata for equivalent pay, purely because most part timers I have encountered have been (usually) women who are reducing their hours to fit in with nursery times/school pick-up, and other things that require them to leave by a certain time. In other words, people who used to work more than contracted hours when full time often work only contracted hours when part time, because there is a reason to leave on time. I'm not saying that's bad, probably the long hours worked previously and by others are bad, but that's often been the scenario I've seen.

Obviously that's not always the case anyway, and often part timers do more than their fair share to make sure they can keep and justify those hours. Equally obviously long hours doesn't necessarily equal more or better quality output.

I suppose my point is you can't make generalisations about how productive people are just because of the hours they happen to work. Most people are paid a set salary for doing a set contracted number of hours, so unless you are paid in some kind of productivity-based way, within that salary structure there are always going to be some who earn it more than others.

Hopefully, hard-working productive staff get rewarded in terms of increases and bonuses where applicable (not much at the moment obviously!), or at least in terms of personal recognition, trust, and career development. That's what you'd hope anyway.

The bottom line is when you are a parent, if you want to work, there are usually childcare costs, so your income is going to take a dive either way. If you choose to work part time and save on childcare costs, your income is going to dive as well. But isn't it marvellous that there is a mechanism in place now for parents to request different working arrangements to fit around their children, and isn't it brilliant that doing so is becoming more and more normal? I think so.

Good post Flowery.

Having worked with part-timers in my team I can tell you that the full-timers are often picking up the part-timers work on the days they aren't in the office (or later in the day if their part-time colleague has rushed off early to pick up from the nursery). That may make part-timers look more productive than they really are to those not so closely involved and make the full-timers look less productive because they are also doing some of their colleague's official job. Of course this situation may not apply to your job but it does often apply in an office environment where the working week is usually five days and clients/suppliers/colleagues expect a five day service. I'm now a part-time mum myself so I am sympathetic to your views but I also totally sympathise with employers trying to manage part-time workers. I freelance and run my own business now so I deal with the inconveniences of part-time availability and the benefits (if I create them) of being extra productive on a part-time basis. If you really think you are extra productive for the days you work and are really providing the value of a full-time worker have you considered working for yourself?