Ay doctor mums out there!!!

[drclairey]

Hello I'm a junior doc and am going back to work next month but could really do with some advice from fellow dr mums who have done it as don't know how to cope with the hours and childcare. Really upset about returning to work as and would be great to know I'm not the only one.

Thank Claire

Are you a member of doctors.net.uk? - lots and lots of Dr mums on there - at various stages - I can't recommend it highly enough. Try their family or women's forum.

(I'm a GP with a husband who works part time; no shifts etc. Others either have stay at home or part time husbands, flexible nannies, gone flexi - funding often a problem, and some have sadly given up completely)

Thank you will try that. Unfortunately my hubbie is a junior doc too so going to be very difficult I think.

Your best bet is probably a childminder if you can't afford a nanny. Have you spoken to your trust and the deanery - they may have some ideas or initiatives?

aww claire i'm going to be in same situation in a few months and am dreading it! what job are you going back to? what r u planning to do about childcare etc?

I gave up because I had no family cover and dh works long and unpredictable hours. But I am a lot older than you and I believe training is more family friendly now ( I used to be on a 1 in 3!). I wish you luck because I have missed it and the sense of achievement it gave me. Am just applying to retrain as a primary teacher nw dd3 is at school.

I'm also going back to work - albeit not until July but still haven't approached the childcare issue yet. This is my third child - with 6 year gap between all three, it takes me that long to get back into my stride regarding managing it all!

What are you specialising in? Is your dh medical as well?

I remember after dd2 going back to work, doing 80+ hours a week and feeling at breaking point all the time - for a few weeks then everything calmed down, things get easier and i never regretted going back to work.

the hours are definitely better than they used to be, but i have done 7 days of 12 hour days then 3 days 9 to 5 in an SHO job, which was draining even without a baby to come home to! my main worry is backup if my son is ill, as i dont have any family who can help out here as all work full time.

I'm a consultant and have 2DCs. MyDH is also consultant. I work 3 days/week plus on calls, but not resident. Not v helpful to you as I'm further on so prob easier, but just want to encourage you to give it a good try, I think you won't find it too bad. What speciality are you in? I'm in paeds and v family friendly, lot of female consultants, makes a diff. Good luck!

Good Luck - I hope you find a wondeful childminder who will be flexible and understanding.
There are a few of us about!

It's a struggle (O+G staff grade and single mum here). Am applying for GP (somewhat halfheartedly) and jobs outside medicine - sadly I really, really love my field... Anyway a few thoughts, gleaned from others and my experience:

With 2 salaries, I would get a nanny. As a single mum with negligible maintenance, I can't afford it. But with both of you on the ladder, then you ought to be able to prioritise. But if not...
Childminder definitely for under 2s.
Once lo hits 2 I think nursery is reasonable and I have at last found a babysitter (actually a nanny wanting a few extra hours) who will collect DD and put her to bed at home when I am on til 9:30.

Make it clear that you need to leave on time
Small, quiet hospitals make the above more possible...

Accept offers of help.

I have NO IDEA how you get your exams!!! and it's a nightmare when your child is ill, but share that time with your partner.

Remember that the old advice of eat well, sleep well and exercise are even more essential now you have a little one to sustain too. Lots of luck.

I did brilliantly (if I do say so myself) in my MRCGP exams which I took when DS1 was 11 months old. I'm not sure how, in retrospect, though I suspect my skills in juggling and multitasking helped (that and a supportive DH).

(my nanny is brilliant; I really can't recommend one highly enough if you can possibly afford it. It's cheaper to have one living in if you have the space - we don't)

Let your rotation tutor know that you have a baby/small child - get your DH to do the same. Request that your hospitals are all close to home. This is impt. Example - the Newcastle rotation includes stints in M/Borough which is a 100 mile round trip and not family-frinedly!

You need to have the chat with your DH that the responsibility for drop-offs/pick ups/taking days off when the baby is sick is equally shared. Consultants get a bit peed off when it's always the mum that needs short days/days off.

On every new attachent - have a discreet word with your consultant; make sure he/she knows that you have a small baby and the commitment that entails.

I dropped out of medical school, but DH is now a consultant. One thing he says is that he is no longer part of the junior doctor gossip tree - if juniors have home issues someone actively needs to put him in the loop. I'm an evil wife - he must be home by 6pm if he's not o/c. becasue of this, he fully understands the stress of comibining children and work, so he feels he knows how impt it is for him to organise the day so that parents can get away on time.

I don't know about junior stuff, but DH often brings paperwork home (mostly letters), or will go back in and tidy up once the kids are in bed. He'll do this maybe once/week.

Having seen the following happen - don't let you and your DH fall into this trap..........
It's real easy to become competitive about who's career is most impt, who needs to ass kiss with consultants the most. Your children will suffer. You both need to understand that you need to draw a line where work finishes and home life begins. it's a tough call, but your children do need you just as much as your patients.

Be super organised. Day to day childcare, plan B for sickness and a plan C as well. The organised parents cope.

know a few people who nanny share when they're doing different days

I am not a doctor but I've always worked full time and sometimes very long hours with small babies and some of my family are doctors. My brother tries to make sure he leaves work at 5.30 or 6 every day to be with his little children. He is a consultant however.

I endorse the points about organisation. When we had three chidlren under 4 and both worked full time including me in the City we always put my career first as that was going to earn us the most money as a family but even so I alawys tried to get home for bed time adn to maximise time with the children. Allocate tasks fairly - my husband took full charge of the washing, I always did the girls; hair, school bags. We both supervised homework and music practice. When they were veyr little we had a nanny come to the house each day which is quite cheap compared with 3 nursery places but if you only have one child the economics might differ. If you do haev a day nanny (and wages are dropping and tons of people want work so it can be a great option at present) then she comes in to care for it whether the child has c old, flu or whatever so you dont;' haev the nurser problem of sickness, she is controled by you and does what you say. it's a nicer option gives you more power but even then it's good to haev back up. if she were sick which may be one day a year in our case there were nanny agencies who would send smoeone at short notice or one of us with the least important meeting that day would stay home and work from home.

I agree that organised parents cope. If you're going toh ave a second child quite soon then I think a daily nanny is a good otpion too and also the baby gets to stay in its own home with one person totally devoted to it who it can bond with too.

excellent points Xenia.

Did you find your nanny didn't do as much educational stuff as a nursery did? have a friend with a nanny, ans she's very concerned that the kids just get hauled around nanny's houses with no craft or reading or visits to the park.

No and I think under 5s need things like shopping trips, parks and interaction not nurseries. Also ours all went to a Montessori or similar nursery school in the mornings from age 3 which the nanny took them too as they got to that age so that for me removed any issues over that kindo f thing. the first nanny took the twins to a few activities I booked but mostly she took them out of the house which was brilliant as I worked from home then and she toko them on a rota system to be with her nanny friends and the chidlren they looked after.

The only down side with the first nanny who stayed 10 years was she wasn't very tidy and clean but we could live with that - it's all about compromise and they all said "you was" until they got to about 3 and went to nursery school but I don't see any lasting damage now those 3 are at university stage. I personally don't like nurseries for udner 3s. I think in your own house with the very same person looking afetr you every day who your parents control is a nicer dynamic because wwhat you want in a sense to buy is the emotional empathy and although chidlren do haev a key worker in nurseries it's not quite the same and you dont' haev power over the nursery - you follow the rules of the nursery whereas you make therules for your nanny and professional women tend to be used to and like to be in charge and the fact it was cheaper with 3 chidlren at home and with teh twins the nanny ciould bring them to me to breastfeed was a bonus too but only at that stage when I was workig at home, not with the older ones.

One learned to read at 3 at nursery school and the fact the nanny talked to them all day did help really but I wouldn't just have a nanny up to age 5. i think they get to a point once potty trained when getting used to being out in the morning in a school type place is good for them and helps when they start big school. tyhe fact the state I think pays a sum even at private nursery schools for 4 and possibly 3 year olds is good too.

What you can't expect is that nannies or nurseries will be the same as you. no one is. They may do some thing better and some worse but that's fine. it's good for children to have the variety.

Thank you for posting about this DrClairey -I've found reading this thread very helpful, particularly what Xenia says. I'm not a doctor, nor in the City, but I do work long hours in a high-pressure-type job. I'm trying to decide at the moment about nurseries, nannies and the rest of it.

I hope there is a way forward for women hospital doctors.

MrsB

it's "doable" even if you both are junior docs. as above, you need to be organised, and you both need to chip in for it to work.

if you are going for a nursery ensure the drop off pick up times will fit in with your work. (sounds silly but will make a huge difference to your stress level.)

make sure you write on calls on a calendar so you don't end up swapping into the same day.

have you thought about flexi training?

I'm a hospital doc - respiratory and general medicine. Two kids, aged 4 and 9 months. Usually work 3 days a week, have varied days depending on hospital rotation and clinics etc. Love my job, miss my kids sometimes - but glad I have stuck it out as I think it gets easier once you can be (partly) your own boss - I start a consultant job in May and am going to be able to negotiate over days and hours of work etc. Some tips:

Be organised - have a Plan B and then a Plan C for childcare, but don't expect them always to work - and don't expect to get through your rotation without a few days off for childcare as sometimes mum is the only one who will do. I have always used nurseries - including hospital ones - but if I had to do it again would really consider childminder, expecially when they are little, and a nanny now that I have two kids.

Plan ahead - I would agree, let the deanery know your situation, and ask not to rotate too far away. Also DP not to go too far if possible - my DH works 90 mins drive away - not easy.

EWTD is to your advantage - I used to do a 1 in 4 and couldn't have survived with kids, but the rotas are better now. Ask for shift patterns that suit you - as long as you do the work, no-one minds swapping around to accomodate - better to talk to the rota organiser in advance. In my current job, I can't do lates on a Monday or Tuesday as DH has a clinic that always overruns, so I do all my lates towards the end of the week.

Ask DP to help! It is not your sole responsibility to do all the sorting out and worrying about childcare (although you're probably better at it) and even if he can do two pick ups or drop offs per week it takes the pressure off. Make sure that the housework is fairly split. Get a cleaner if possible. Lower your standards! (mine were already pretty low, TBH)

Don't pretend you don't have children - many of your bosses will have small children (and wives - ho hum) - and will understand the pressures. On the other hand, don't expect your colleagues without children to be super-interested. One of my colleagues was moaning yesterday morning that he was really, really tired after a night out - then he saw my 'I have been up all night with a baby with an ear infection and playing lego since 6am do not talk to me about being tired' look and graciously shut up. However, I try not to moan - I have chosen to work and have children, and if I'm not enjoying it then I could choose to do it differently, I think.

Seek out positive role models and ask for advice.

Do what is right for you and your family, not your bosses or the deanery or the rota organiser or even your colleagues.

Yes, endorse that. If in 1983 my husband could help recruit and interview nannies I don't see why men in 2008 cannot see it as their responsibility. Women can make things worse for themselves by taking on more than then need and by simply assuming - I'm female so O sort out childcare. Teh couples I've known who made it work tend to be those where both muck in, where each day they sort out who will be home first to let the nanny or auy pair go off duty or to pick up from nursery. Women have a happened of taking on all burdens.

I suspect some women used to buying good quality things think - nursery equals inspections, perfection, rules and home care equals unqualified, not inspected but I would much rather have pschological continuing and love from a long staying daily nanny than any amount of HSE inspections of the types of detol used on the nursery floor.

But as said above everyone differs. It was 24 years ago when we recruited our first nanny before the first baby was even born as I was returning to work after 2 weeks so childcare had to be sorted out when I was pregant and in a sense that made it much less sexist from the start - we were both working full time and by week 2 we'd both be back working full time. Obviously everyone differs but 24 years on I think some of the thigns I overly worried about then don't seem to matter and it's been very nice having chidlren again much later after the others, you feel more like a grandparent in terms of experience than with the first lot of children.

What worked foru s but only ten years into having chidlren when we had a bit of spare money, was getting help with cleaning at home and when we had the twins (children 4 and5 ) having help on weekend mornings with the youngest two which really did help as often we both did some work at weekends. Their father has always worked all day Saturday and part of Sundays.

do let your childcare provider know what your job entails and that occasionally an unexpected emergency means you will be late

However, one of the hardest thing to do is to just walk away at 5pm. There's an on-call team, that's what they're there for.

This prob won't apply to you, but let the nurses know that you can't stay and chat to relatives at 5pm (when they roll in from their own jobs to visit). Sounds a bit off, but DH makes it clear that he is unavailable between 5 and 8pm. he's often had to go back in, but it means he has plenty time to sit down for a proper chat.

Highlander, can you have a word with my DH? The whole 'being home by 6' thing seems to have passed him by...... I'm pretty impressed with yours, though, going back in to see rels after he's done bath/book/bed.

Are you tempted to go back to medical school?

KateF - I have to say that now my oldest is approaching school age, the thought of being a primary school teacher does appeal.....

drClairey- I am a FT gastroenterology spr and my husband is a general surgical Spr.We have a 8 year old and 7 month old DDs. Going back to work 1st of Feb.I have always worked FT and did my MRCP when my eldest was 11months old. Currently in research so no shifts involved at present.
My adv would be-

Never feel guilty. You can be a good doctor and a good mum.

Be Super organised and plan your week ahead.Both your commitments and your other halfs. Even if you can come home half an hour before makes a huge difference.

ALWAYS,ALWAYS tell your consultants what is happening at home (not moan but he /she needs to know that your baby is not well or you have been up whole night etc.,)He/Sje should know that there are some days where you have to leave on time whatever happens. I have told my consultant that the latest Ican stay is 5.50 pm as the nurasey shuts at 6.30 and I have left.But at the same time if you can - days the childcare is not an issue stay back and do your work..I know I know EWTD (doen not work in day to day practice)

Try and cook in advance and freeze so when you come home tghe last thing you want to do is think about family meal.

We have a decent size kitchen, so I have my eldest in the kitchen doing work and theyoungest in high chair.Whatever timer you have in the evening try and spend it together.

We had our Dd in nursery - problems with that is you have to drop and pick up and you can never be sure that you will finish at time.You are stuck if they are ill. Either a cm or a nanny.

There are nannies with yound child who bring their children to work and they are cheaper thatr the usual nanny.If trhey are ofsted reg you can pay them by childcare vouchers.Place adverts in netmumms/gumtree

Good luck.

I can type bit better that that......Honestly.Had my 2ndDD on lap.

And also to add, I do a variation of what Highlander's DH does - if my list finishes right on 5 (as it will do fairly often) I run and get DD, get her her tea and either do my post op round with her or leave her with one of the nurses. Same thing if I've been operating on a Friday and have postops to see at the weekend or labour ward debriefs - EWTD forgets that this is called GOOD clinical care, being a good dr and a good mum. Never had complaints from the bosses/patients/nurses/midwives.

Just noticed you say you are upset about going back - how old is lo? I took 14 months off - not sure my career has recovered yet but I still think it was the best thing as I felt really ready to go back (if quite de-skilled). Any chance you could delay, say, til August, if that would feel better?

Smellyeli - love the 'many of your bosses will have small children - and wives' - so true!