I think I want to do LAW. Is CPE the best way forward? Lawyers - please talk to me!

[StreetcarNamedDesire]

Hi there,

I'm 33, have a 1st degree (English & Philosophy) and am reevaluating career options after having DD2.

Considering studying for CPE/GDL probably starting in Sept 2010.

I haven't studied for a looong time. Is it worth doing an A-level in law to get my brain in gear again?

I'm not sure I want to be a solicitor - being a barristers clerk appeals - is the CPE the best option for switching career?

Any thoughts gratefully received..

Wouldn't bother doing law A Level. Re:barristers' clerk - they don't usually have legal qualifications as far as I am aware.

Thanks. I know the CPE is high pressured and challenging, I'm wondering whether there's something academic I can do in the meantime to prepare me?

I'ld just have a read of a textbook or two and some judgments (if you go on court of appeal website you should find some).Oh and any sort of guidance on general essay writing, no particularly helpful title springs to mind atm though.

Lo. I did an English degree first, then law conversion or CPE. You've probably seen this website but posting it just in case.

There are two big adaptations to make between law and english IMO

1. You have to learn your stuff. With professional exams you need to swot. There are no marks for waffling along elegantly. You just have to learn boatloads of stuff, some of it quite dull.

1. The nature of the exams means you have to present your stuff quite logically and consider issues in the round rather than one particular aspect.

I think CPE is prob the best route actually - keeps your options open. "A" level law sounds like not a bad idea to get your brain going in a different direction but I've no experience of that.

I also did an English degree and then CPE. It may have changed a lot since my day, which was a long time ago, but the CPE certainly wasn't very high-powered back then - as Q says, you just had to learn the stuff and apply it - no marks for being leftfield!

A propos of nothing, I do like your name btw. Always loved TWilliams.

The other thing which I would suggest is getting some experience. Right now is not a good time but it would really distinguish your application. It really helps to show that this is a committed and understood route. Just write around to a few places offering your services paid or unpaid and see what happens. Also contact your local law society. I've got a friend going through this right now and he got three offers of temporary jobs in local firms.

Barrister-clerking is not law - it's basically selling and managing (the commodity concerned being the expertise/time of barristers in that chambers): think of it like being a celebrity agent. They're super-astute, the big clerks.

Did you actually mean being a barrister? - because the court work appeals?

If you're doing a mid-life-ish switch I would do some research - before you do the plunge - on which bits of the law would ultimately make a good fit for you. For instance, doing City soliciting - not that you want to, I see, but as an example - wouldn't be a good idea at all, because even if you found a firm to give you a training contract (there used to be a cut-off age of around 30, presumably they can't be so blunt about it now but they may well have the same criterion going in fact) the hours and the pressure as a trainee would be hard to sustain with a family.

On the other hand, if you're interested in court work I bet the CPS would be keen, and maybe even sponsor you. Also local government work, perhaps?

Also re barristers' clerks - you others, correct me if I'm out of date - but the type always used to be a very fly kid, starting straight out of school, no qualifications, but a grip like a vice on the main chance.

I did the CPE after DC 3 and 4 born (twins) and found it really straightforward to get into. Everyone doing it part time was mature and had work pressures probably more than family pressures.

I would say though get some work experience if possible as I found that once you start you are sort of on a treadmill and will suddenly find yourself going down a narrow road. For me it was the LPC (again part time). I knew it would be really hard for me to commit to this career full time but didn't want to give up after CPE. The reality is that I worked part time as a paralegal for three years and have just stopped as I couldn't make the leap to the long hours culture that would have led me to qualification.

If I were you I would look closely at the barristers clerk role and get a realistic idea of what the day to day expectations of you will be and how that will fit in with family.

Sorry - spect you have already done this....

Good luck though - it will be great fun and you will meet some fab people along the way.

Yes I wondered about that Bink. Being a barristers' clerk is not legal - were you thinking about being a court clerk?

God, 6spot's warning against tangents caused a sudden flashback to an exam called S level which has prob been abolished now. This was a paper that you did after A levels. They asked set a vagueish question about narratorial omniscience and I had no clue what the question was about but I'd just read something soo exciting about deonstruction and Alain Robbe-Grillet so I wrote about that for the entire paper. This is what you can do in English but you can't do in Law ...

Hi. Are you thinking of doing the CPE full time or part time? I did it distance learning over two years alongside a full time job. It was challenging certainly (and very interesting) but I wouldn't say it was particularly high pressured.

FWIW, I think A levels in any vocational subject are pretty pointless. Why bother doing a cut down version (and then perhaps have to unlearn stuff that's been skimmed over) when you could just launch into the real thing?

deconstruction

Agree that CPE wasn't that hard and you only had to learn a certain amount of the syllabus to get through 3 or 4 questions in the exams.
LPC was an eye opener though as you had to know everything inside out.

If you have ever worked for a living you will find the CPE is not hard, IME. Stressful only if your previous experience is being a student and nothing else. There is a lot of Just Learning Stuff though. I'm qualified too long to know about the LPC.

Are you thinking of clerk to the magistrates? That's always sounded interesting, and a friend from the CPE was going to do it.

Bink is right, barristers' clerks are barrow boys straight out of Essex - nothing wrong with that, but it is very different to being a lawyer.

I would def do the CPE if you can afford it and evaluate as you go on. Maybe look at the Legal Exec courses as they seemed much more practical and orientated to the workplace than the CPE which is totally academic.

Thanks for all the info. I'm just starting to research properly, so all your comments are really useful in helping understand how realistic my ambitions are.

RE Barristers clerk - I have a good friend who has been one for some years (no previous law experience) and I thought the work looked very interesting (exposure to law without the necessity for legal training). Court work also appeals.

I do have very good legal contacts (F-I-L & uncle a partner in local law firm, FIL best mate is circuit judge etc etc), but I don't want to approach them spuriously until I'm clear what I want.

I have previously had a place on the CPE course at Newcastle but declined as I became pregnant with DD1.

Friends (non-legal) have recommended the OU route - any thoughts? (maybe not for CPE but for a Level 1/2 introduction to law type module?)

Quattrocentro - thanks - first choice was DiamondAsBigAstheRitz as loove Fitzgerald but decided it was too long :-)

Also to add: my DP has been studying the ILEX route for last 2 years (failed this year - he's not interested) so I'm quite familiar with the course material for this - I am not anti-ILEX but it does strike me that if I'm going to put the effort in I might as well go for the most useful and flexible qualification (ILEX route seems long - and I do not currently have legal employment)

Thanks

You definitely don't want to be a barristers' clerk - the usual qualifications for that are 5 GCSEs and a born in Romford gene (and a talent for getting into fights outside dodgy nightclubs at weekends). However, even barristers' chambers are changing and starting to employ practice managers with degrees instead of barrow boys - but it is still a business job, marketing the barristers to their potential clients and dealing with fees and diary arrangements with no knowledge of law required.
Clerks to magistrates are legally qualified - barristers or solicitors - who advise magistrates on points of law - so is an interesting job if you want to specialise in criminal law.
I wouldn't bother with A Level Law. If you want to get your brain in gear, I'd suggest you take an Open University module of your choice.

I would get reading in the first instance - Glanville Williams learning the law was recommended to me before I started my degree, and tho I haven't read "what about the law" (barnard, o'sullivan, virgo), the authors are all very entertaining people!

My experience of studying law and then practising it is that it requires a funny mixture of an academic and very practical mind. If you're too much either way, you won't enjoy it! My dp is very academic (English lit) and sometimes when I'm discussing technical things with him I think he'd make a wonderful lawyer, but then I remember how he'd hate the paperwork and probably wouldn't be so good at the "quick need to solve this problem now" aspect of it. On the other hand, there's a huge amount of reading and it really helps to have an elephantine memory.

Obviously it is a good idea to get work exp but don't be too swayed by it, in that not all areas of law will immediately appear particularly interesting.

Good luck with it! One final point tho - it can be a real bugger to tie up with family commitments. IME it is much easier for the legal execs to go home at 5pm because their work is so much more paperworky. Tho I do do transactional work which is notoriously bad for long hours. But also rewarding!

Also (very final this time!), obviously this would be an odd time to go into residential conveyancing - but a fine time to go into corporate recovery/insolvency work. Cynical - but then we're lawyers!!

Hi there. I'm a solicitor and sad to say would discourage anyone from entering the profession at the moment! I do actually like my job (court and police station based criminal work) but the route to get qualified is expensive. I suspect you are more than capable of dealing with the work loads from CPE and LPC but if you are thinking of doing anything other than company commercial stuff where you may be can get some sort of sponsorship, the courses I think are hellishly expensive. My salary at 12 years qualified is the same as a trainee solicitor in the City.

Don't get me wrong, I do like my work and would not in a million years work in the City. I was lucky when I did my professional exams as the LEA would still fund them (yes it was that long ago) but if I was doing law now I would not be able to afford to incur the debt as my measly salary would never pay it off!! Sorry to make this all about money and I hate saying this as before long there will be no new blood in my profession as no one wants to work for our salaries any more.

If you are interested in court work then I would suggest the Magistrates Court - they sometimes sponsor as do the CPS - but a Magistrates Court clerk or legal advisor as they are now known don't get to do much advocacy.

Good luck with what ever you decide.

So right on the money aspect of actually working in law. I just quit as seemed so wrong to have worked 4 years part time to get CPE and LPC then get paid around £4.00 per hour for loads of responsibility without experience (quite scary) and very long hours at an unpaid overtime rate. PLUS my firm were charging me out at £100 per hour! Gulp.

Lady, Scruffy.. sobering thoughts. The cost of training vs. expected salary is the main reason I've not taken the plunge before now. I don't have any debt and would be reluctant to take it on if the prospects of earning a good salary are so bleak! My full time salary in my present job would be just under £30k (based in North East). I realise this is quite respectable but I loathe my job with every fibre of my being. I've looked at alternative careers but not found anything that I fancy (one option is to go freelance as a copywriter but I am not sales-oriented and I don't think I'll make anything near my current salary).

DP has also just been cut back to 3 days (legal exec). So perhaps prospects for law are not good..

I don't want to earn a fortune, but I do want an intellectually stimulating career which challenges me, and although I don't mind being broke in the short term, if it meant years and years of debt with no prospect of paying it off I think I'd be stupid to pursue it.

I love Mumsnet - such a balance of opinions! I couldn't make a decision without it

Bink just reread your post, your suggestions are really useful (pmsl re image of barristers clerk - my friend is charming and cultured lady in her 40s with a degree to boot)

I work in the public sector at present (not in law) so that might be an avenue worth exploring. Although I am totally dispirited with the organisation (NHS) at the moment and would struggle to muster enthusiasm to start playing the long game.

Hi

I am currently doing the CPE in the evenings - just finishing off first semester. However, I have been made redundant and with the economic situation am very concerned that I may not get another job for quite some time.

It is also looking like prospects at the end of the course may be grim and therefore not sure if I should continue with the course.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

S