Flexible working meeting didn't go well... any advice??

[aqualeo]

I had my flexible working meeting with my manager and HR which didn't go well and was wondering if anyone had some advice?

Before putting my application in I had a chat with my manager saying that I wanted to do 3.5 days and and which days would be okay? My manager said "he was fine about it and hadn't expected me to come back full time". As he has been so positive about it, family friendly public sector organisation with a big precedent of flexible working, I was not expecting any issues in the the meeting to discuss my application.

But the meeting did not go well, his attitude had completely changed! He gave numerous reasons of why it wouldn't be possible to do the job part time. He asked lots about my child care arrangements and what would happen if my child was sick etc as he had to ensure that he had sufficient staff cover if I was off to look after my child.

I have now received the minutes from the meeting which the HR person did and there are errors and lots missing. Should I just follow the correct procedure and point out all the errors/missing items on the minutes and wait for a decision next week? What happens if they don't accept my corrections? It now feels like it is now my word against them. These incomplete minutes are also being used this week to reach a decision with senior management.

I would definitely feedback on the minutes made by the HR person. I would suggest getting in touch with him/her and saying that you have a number of comments and additions to the draft of the minutes that he/she circulated. Ask him/her how he/she would like these to be fed back. Suggest to her that you switch "track changes" on in your word processing package and then make the changes to the original document that you deem necessary/appropriate. This then gives them the ability to agree/disagree your changes before issuing a final copy of the minutes. It also means you can keep a copy of your version and their later accepted version. I would copy in your manager and HR person on all correspondence at all times.

I am a big fan of flexible working and have negotiated it on at least two occasions where the position was previously full time. I do believe however that the employer does have a right to ask how you will cover sickness/workload issues etc. You need to demonstrate how you intend to do this whether it be:

a) inlaws/grandparents helping out either on sick days or coming down to enable you to work full time for a week to compensate

b) your partner taking on some of the sick cover

c) you working evenings/weekends to make up time.

d) You being on call via mobile/blackberry on non work days

It can be done but both you and the employer need to be flexible. You also may want to remember that flexible working,although now formally legislated in UK employment law, is a relatively new idea (it didn't exist 7-8 years ago). Your employer may be concerned as to how it will work and whether it can reasonably be done with your position.

Once you have demonstrated that you can cover the current or a revised role flexibly you will have reduced problems. You could ask for a trial period of say 3-6 months with a review thereafter.

If your manager was originally receptive and you can talk to him/her ask them what they would think would be ideal bearing in mind your wish to work reduced hours.

I hope these ideas help. Let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Could you talk to one of the other part timers in your organisation - ask them about how it they managed to get it?

You definately need to point out the mistakes in the minutes.

The law is really weak, my friend had a problem with her employer and went to ACAS for advice. They basically said that all the employer has to say is they've considered it and won't work. So the best way to tackle it is talk things through with your manager. If you don't get the answer you want try going back with a different proposal.

Hope this doesn't worry you too much for the rest of your ML.

Also meant to say - they may have a right to ask about child care and sickness arrangements but how many men would be asked about it?

You need flowerybeanbag on this one but tbh I would never ask about childcare arrangements and was not asked about mine when I applied to go back PT. I find it a bit odd but can't say without checking if it is an issue here or not.

It is just a shame he seemed to change his tactics, you did the right thing by sounding him out first - I always recommend that on here, it saves you wasting an application.

Email your own notes to HR and ask that the minutes are amended accordingly. It is hard to take accurate notes and I would always ask for the person in question to approve the minutes in these situations.

I'm not the expert but I thought that they didn't have a right to ask about childcare arrangements. I have been back at work 2 years since Mat leave and in that time I have only had 1 day off due to DS not being well, indeed I think most p/t employees seem to take less sick leave because we are so keen to show our commitment to our jobs?

Definitely correct the notes from the meeting. What vibes were you getting, were they willing to go for the 3.5 days because quite frankly the rest of your managers concerns are irrelevant.

I'm sceptical about the relevance of the childcare cover for sickness for your application. if you work 3.5 days then the potential for your child's sicknesses impacting on normal working arrangements is surely less than if you work 5 days. I can't see it has any bearing at all. you definitely do need fbb on this...

good luck

yes would also query ?s re:cover for child sickness as they wouldnt ask you that if yuo were coming back on your original hrs. - dont get upset - difficult I know , redo the mins with your additions, and look hard at whethe ryou really did cover the main aspects of the job and the isseus you may have wth covering it by working flexibly.
good luck -

Childcare question totally inappropriate, and how on earth is that an issue for part timers but not for full timers? If you returned to work full time surely you are even more likely to have a child off sick than if you are part time? Asking a member of staff for details of their childcare arrangements and what will happen if their child is sick is inappropriate and potentially indirect sex discrimination. Would they be asking the same question of a man who had just had a baby?

I would write back to your manager copying in HR. Enclose corrected minutes, ask for confirmation that the corrected version will be used to forward to senior management.

Express disappointment that your manager felt the need to raise childcare issues which have absolutely no bearing on your flexible working application.

You could also explain that, should your application be refused, you will be appealing the decision based on the fact that your manager had previously said he was fine with your request, and the fact that childcare issues were raised inappropriately.

You don't say what your view is of the problems that were raised with your application. Your employer must consider your request, and must follow a legal procedure, including giving one or more of eight legitimate business reasons for refusal, but they don't have to agree it. Do you feel any of the issues raised are valid, and have you addressed them as part of your application?

Plenty of constructive advice there. Are you a union member? (If it's a big public sector organisation it's likely that at least one union organises/represents workers there).

Are there any flexible workers in your own department/team?

Thanks for all the very useful advice and ideas on how to proceed. I am working on the amendments to the minutes, alot has been left out, and will do a cover letter as suggested.

Unfortunately I am not a member of the union and you need to be a paid member for 13 weeks before they will help with advice. I spoke to ACAS also who didn't have alot of advice, the law does seem to be very weak.

There is already a manager in the team who works 3 days a week and I chose the same days that she works as we work together. When her request was agreed, her manager was a father and just signed her request off straight away. All the people that I can think of in the organisation who work part time have managers who are parents, both my manager and the manager above him are single men.

I don't mind them asking about my childcare arrangements but the conversation should have then quickly moved onto more relevant discussion.

They do not want staff working from home so during the meeting I said I would change the application from 3 days in the office and half a day at home to just 3 days in the office. I already knew the working from home wouldn't be possible from other mothers who had their request turned down.

The whole discussion felt quite confrontational as my manager kept giving reasons why it wouldn't work such as others being unable to do their work. All these reasons felt stupid and I was having to point out that you couldn't compare my job to more senior positions e.g. director, manager and just because the temp with no prior experience couldn't cope with my job doesn't mean that I can't.

Since the meeting I checked my work calendar and as I was using up holiday the last 6 weeks I have already demonstrating that I can do the work in 3/4 days. They are currently recruiting a second person to do the job as the temps really struggled with the word load (which in my opinion is because they had no prior experience/knowledge), my concern is actually whether there is enough work for 2 people.

Very frustrating! but need to concentrate on the facts from the meeting. I really enjoy my job and want to return.

Do consider offering a trial period. It provides a bit of a 'safe' environment to test your proposal. Your employer is protected as they can withdraw the arrangement if it's not working, and it gives you the opportunity to make damn sure it works brilliantly so they can't possibly turn it down...

I am doing a cover letter for the corrections to the minutes. At this stage is it worth using it as an opportunity to add more information which I think is relevant to my request? and also suggest a trial period?

or just wait for the decision and then if they don't agree I can suggest a trial period and provide more information.

If you've got more information at this point then do add it so that the person making the decision has all available information necessary. And yes do mention that you would be happy to consider an agreed trial period as well.

If your request is not agreed, then you can appeal the decision, which will be easier when you have the specific reasons for the refusal. At that point you can propose alternative arrangements if appropriate, and offer solutions to the problems they've highlighted as reasons for refusing.

Great news I got my 3 days! Thank you for the advice! HR did acknowledged the issue asking if I wanted to take it further, which I have said right now I don't want to.

However one condition of the outcome was that they changed my working conditions from flexi working (7 hour days with core hours of 10-4) to fixed hours of 9-5. It was never mentioned before that they might change this and so the impact on my job was not discussed. My jobs hours vary daily and its not possible to do the job in fixed hours of 9-5, as I often start early and/or finish late. Flexi working was perfect for the job.

So I now have to appeal as they although they have said they would be flexible, they will not change the contract/outcome letter from fixed hours of 9-5 back to flexi working as required by the job.

Any advice on appealing? or how it works?

If it's not actually possible to do your job in fixed hours, why do they want you to do that? Presumably your previous contractual hours stated how many hours and what the core hours were?

I have no idea why they want to do this. They know I often have to start earlier than 9 and finish later than 5. It was discussed during our meeting how would I deal with child care when I started early and finished late? and by saying that they will be flexible they are acknowledging that its not possible to do it 9-5 but at this stage they won't change the contract back, I have to appeal if I am not happy with the outcome. Very frustrating!

So they are saying it's fine for you to continue working flexible hours around a core base, but just won't put that in the contract. What does your manager say about it?

Assuming you have confirmation that the flexible arrangement is fine, and assuming your current contract is along those line, and assuming your manager supports it, can't see a problem.

Quote any comments or emails about the flexible working being fine, and also your existing contract on that subject, and explanation of why your job has to be done on that basis, and your manager's confirmation of that.

I think you need to find out why as well, to help you with the appeal document.

This probably isn't relevant but when I returned back to work part-time for the local council my contract said I worked fixed hours BUT in the interview with my boss we agreed I would come back on flexi time because it worked for me and for them.

So in reality my contract did not reflect my true working conditions as HR is one thing and my manager ran our section and knew what worked there.

Fizzylemonade it sounds like the exact same situation. Only thing is it was my managers decision to change to fixed hours but he has said he will allow me the flexibility but will not change the contract.

I don't trust my manager not to make life difficult for me, and to not change his mind again, so I do not want to go with an informal decision. Managers also change and it can then be difficult with a new one.

I've been told my manager will be at the appeal meeting to explain the formal decision.