What to do next

[whattodonext]

I had to change name as people from office come on here...
I applied for a job at the council where i work. I am qualified for the role which is in a different dept to where I work now and my application met the person spec as confirmed by two collegues.

My boss, also a friend ( on the panel for the new job) said to another person that she was tied between saying I was shit hot and would be great at job and not as she could not face loosing me.

I found out today I have not been shortlisted for an interview as did not provide enough evidence.

I am so upset,I really wanted the job and I dont know where I went wrong

Everyone is telling me its a sham and I should challenge it but i dont know where to start I am so knocked by it all

oops id revealed

oh what the heck.

without being harsh .. your boss advised you to get another director to check over your application and you declined because you felt you knew better?

I think that in itself will be a hard lesson to learn .. you should always take advice where it's given freely.

You are in an incredibly fortunate position of having a boss who values you and is happy to sit down with you and point out where you went wrong.

I'm sorry you didn't get to interview .. but this all looks very positive to me and I'd be grateful to work for such a decent bunch of people tbh

so pick yourself up, dust yourself off and learn from your mistakes and remember the next job opportunity will be even more perfect

It wasnt because I thought i knew better,really it wasnt.

Where I work so many people get a helping hand up and I really want to do it myself and not give anyone the chance to say 'i got her that job'.I have learned my lesson though,your right there and I will be glad when tomorrow is over.Hopefully it wont be as bad as i am imagining..

It's not a case of just saying the right things, it's a case of having the right skills and experience and showing that in an easy to read way to make it as easy as possible for someone to shortlist you.

Maybe writing an essay might be harder, but unless someone actually wants an essay the fact that it's more difficult to do so won't help you.

If someone has the right experience and skills as demonstrated by their work history and says 'the right things' on their form, but they can't do the job, then they will show themselves up at interview.

Obviously I don't know what you do, but I don't think writing an essay proves you can do the job either, even if report-writing (for example) is part of the job.

Similarly, there is no way of knowing that the person submitting the application actually wrote it. So selecting someone because they wrote a beautiful essay at the expense of someone who addressed the criteria in a short and concise way could actually be bad practice, as anyone could have written that essay.

That's why application forms are more widely used now rather than CVs, it's a lot more fact-based that way, and fairer.

I agree with Twiglett, you are very fortunate and have a boss who obviously thinks highly of you and wants to help you progress by giving you some detailed feedback. Make the most of it and move on to the next job.

Thanks flowery I know your right.I suppose its hard when I know the people on panel know me and all my capabilities and that should be enough but then that would be too good to be true for me and not fair for other candidates who did not have that advantage

But Chocolatepeanut, it is a fool that wants to do everything themselves - we all have different experiences and skills. You are being told that a 3 page essay is rarely the way to go, yet you are maintaining that everything was there. If you can't accept help with proof-reading an application form, it doesn't bode well for future team efforts or positive responses to feedback, does it?

I'm still not sure you've answered my earlier question, which was about whether or not you felt you had addressed every part of the person specification?

I take flowery's point about essays etc but the local government method of shortlisting does not require any essays to be written. In fact, a CV will often suffice, so long as the candidate has ensured that they have demonstrated that they have the skills and experience required for the post.

However that is just the first part of it. Of course the assessment process itself is where these skills are tested. But learning how to get shortlisted is valuable in itself, and positive for the future, no?

lou031205

from now I will take as much advice as offered!!

I am no fool but have been a bit stupid

When i wrote my 'essay' I did it freely as I am very expereinced in the field I am applying.It was quite a long spec so I checked back and ensured by ticking off that every point was covered in my submission, adding more where I felt it was not covered in enough detail.

but did you cover everything? If you are sure you did cover everything then you need to ask why they didn't shortlist you.

Yes I covered everything and its been checked by three other people this weekend all in same field and they came to same conclusion.

I think the fact that my boss is reluctant to let me go is really playing on my mind

But didn't you say the other person on the panel you spoke to specifically said they were disappointed with your application? If they said that there must have been something specific they were disappointed about, rather than your boss just being reluctant to let you go.

Also, if it was just that, wouldn't they have shortlisted you? Much easier to say 'really good but just pipped at the post' if someone's attended an interview.

Just makes me think there must be something more than just your boss wanting to keep you.

I think we could all analyse it to death and speculate about why it might be, but you'll get the best idea when you have the discussion and get the specific feedback you've been promised.

I have gone over the 'disappointed' bit over and over.its an awful word

is it 'you gave a crap application' or 'we really wanted you to do well?'

like you said, i will know more tomorrow and will update you all then

thanks
x

Have been thinking about this some more and I've revised my opinion.

I do still think that unless an essay is requested, writing one to address the criteria and making it more difficult for the recruiter is jeopardising your chances of being shortlisted, rightly or wrongly.

However, I think if it's an internal candidate, known to the people doing the shortlisting, it would be strange not to make allowances and you would surely shortlist them if at all possible, even if their application was not quite as you wanted?

I think being 'disappointed' in your application means there was some reason they couldn't shortlist you based on what you'd put. Just putting in an essay rather than an easier format wouldn't qualify as a reason it was impossible to shortlist you in my opinion.

So based on that I would expect there to have been something about your application which meant as much as they wanted to shortlist you and thought you'd be good for the job, they were not able to do so.

I am intrigued to hear what the outcome of the meeting was!

My dp applied for a job where the shortlisting was done by two people who perhaps knew him too well for the wrong reasons. He didn't get shortlisted and was offered feedback. Opinions were mixed over whether the managers were being vindictive, but I do think he would have taken more care if he had been an external applicant and not known any of the people involved.

I'd agree flowery. One of the vagaries of the local government system, is that rightly or wrongly, internal candidates are never given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to shortlisting. There is very much a culture, in my experience, that managers are so used to the blame culture and the madness of the equal opps brigade they barely feel able to make any decisions at all. Of course, I am over-egging the situation a little.

But this is why I've been asking if chocolatepeanut can honestly say that she possesses everything in the person specification. If it states that being an experienced parachute jumper is essential, then if she doesn't have it, then she won't be shortlisted. I've come across managers in the past who've not shortlisted people because they've ignored the 17 years of parachute instructor work listed on the application form, simply because the candidate did not state in the "essay" that they were an experienced parachuter. (Clearly I've made the parachute jumper bit up, just for ease)

Honestly, it's madness.

There may well be a sinister reason behind all of this that chocolatepeanut may well want to take up.

Interesting isn't it?

My background is in places where the challenge is more likely to be convincing the manager that they do actually need to go through a recruitment procedure of some sort even though they 'just know Betty from Marketing would be fab'

Again an exaggeration and a disservice to all the conscientious managers I've had the pleasure of working with.

My experience (which doesn't cover the public sector as you know) would tell me that if there is a good internal candidate who makes a bit of a balls-up of their application, but they are known to and liked by the recruiting managers, they'd be shortlisted anyway. The feedback would be 'disappointed with application, benefit of doubt, buck your ideas up for the interview'.

I'd expect that to be the case either if the format was not what was wanted (ie an essay instead of bullet points or whatever) or even if parachute jumping experience was not mentioned. Said managers would know about parachute jumping experience anyway so wouldn't want to cut off their noses to spite their faces by quibbling over it not being specifically mentioned.

That's not happened here. OP has been told her application was disappointing and that she hasn't been shortlisted. No benefit of doubt has been given. Based on what you're saying llareggub, even if the application was disappointing in terms of format, as long as parachute jumping and whatever else were fully covered, OP ought to have been shortlisted. But if parachute jumping were omitted, regardless of managers' prior knowledge of OP, they might not have felt able to shortlist her.

I have to say 'disappointed' does sort of imply that they couldn't for whatever reasons, and it's tricky to see a reason they couldn't other than omission of parachute jumping.

If there is a different reason, such as not wanting to lose OP from current job, I would have expected her to be shortlisted, to avoid any -ing, and then to be rejected on the basis of someone else performing better at interview, which is obviously much trickier to argue with as a candidate. I would also be surprised to hear that the manager is offering detailed feedback, and going through the application form. It does rather imply there is significant feedback to be given about the application form, ie something fairly fundamental wrong with it.

But chocpeanut is very certain she met all the criteria. It does seem strange from whichever point of view you're looking at it.

Yes, format is a red herring. I suspect that there is a reason why they felt unable to shortlist, but it would pure speculation really. I'd be very interested in what chocpeanut has to say.

Chocpeanut, I recall from previous threads that you and your manager have had a challenging relationship. Has this been resolved?

The challenging relationship llaregub was another manager and she made a massive effort to repair a very damaged realtionshio with all her team mates (she was cited for bullying) and we get on really well now.

I had the meeting yesterday.Basically I applied for another post a month ago. I did not get shortlisted but I knew I was a little lacking in one area.My manager asked the person shortlisting (her manager) to give me feedback as she knew I was applying for this recent post. They discussed my application and the manager shortlisting said the style and format was wrong and that I had not provided enough evidence. However this was NOT the feedback I recieved. She told me it was an excellent application but I was lacking in one area.

My manager told me that although I had touched on the person spec I had not provided anough evidence in each part. She did not understand why I put it through in the same way.I explained about the earlier feedback and she was fuming. I said in previous job application (pre council) I had always done applications in the same way, providing relevant infomation in a concise way.She started to tell me how to do it and I said 'put each part of the spec as a question and answer it?' and she said yes and as she started to give examples I said STOP.I told her I now knew what she wanted and to prove the point that I woild be 'good enough'I would do another application in the 'right way' to prove the point.

I did it last night and gave it to her thus morning and she said it was a dream application and ran off to try and get me at an interview but it was knocked back as they said they cant accept my application now.

I am a bit fed up as they advertised externally for two posts but now they have got funding for three and I though they would advertise the third post and i might get a carck at it.

I have learnt something very valuable though and I guarantee you, with that bit of information, my future applications will get me there
x

oh and disappointed meant that they really wanted me to get job as they know I would be excellent but they could not short list me

rather than

disappointed, your application was crap!

Oh and thers another job comimg up in a few weeks that i can go for so all is not lost
thanks everyone for all your advice
x

Frustrating but actually quite good news in a way. You know what you did or didn't do in terms of covering the person spec and why they couldn't shortlist you, so you are in a good position going forward. You also know they think highly of you which is obviously good, and there's another job coming up as well, which is fantastic!

Fingers crossed for that one.

Just read this.

Chocolatepeanut, does your organisation do competency based recruitment? This is now standard practice in the public sector. I have a feeling this may be why your first application was unsuccessful yet your rewrite was better?

I've done quite a lot of competency-based sifting and interviewing. For people who've only known that method it seems simple but for others who have been used to completing applications in the more traditional method it can be confusing. I've been in the position of having to reject applications when I know the person could do the job, because they didn't know how to answer the questions in the right way and the evidence just wasn't there so it was impossible to give them the marks.

Competency questions ask for a SPECIFIC example of something YOU have done. This is on the basis that past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour.

So for example, project management skills. The sentence 'I have successfully managed many complex projects over the last 5 years' is a statement that may or may not be true. On the other hand 'I clarified the project objectives with my manager. I identified x was a the major risk to delivery so I.... etc etc' actually demonstrates the candidate does have an ability at project management.

Obviously I don't know if this is relevant to you or not but I wanted to mention it just in case, as I've seen several candidates miss out because they didn't grasp the process.

Best of luck with your future application.

Spangle.It was explained to me and my second application in the words of the deputy head of my dept was 'a dream'

Its been a mad week but I learnt something thats for sure!

Brilliant, glad you have it sorted - that's great praise! I'm sure you will be successful next time.