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Please advise if you can - disciplinary hearing - can the person who investigated also sit on the panel?

14 replies

zoggs · 07/07/2008 09:45

Is it acceptable or not? Would it be grounds for appeal if a penalty is imposed? Company (charitible housing association) has about 250 employees. Plenty of managers around.

Huge mess at work. 6 out of 9 team leaders are up for disciplinary hearings. Some for extremely minor, isolated things. None have ever been disciplined before. Feels like a witch hunt. No support offered to improve performance.

I am one of the 3 who has escaped (so far) but I feel it is just a matter of time before they go for the rest of us.

What shall I do? Stand up for my colleagues? (I have witnessed evidence of bullying by boss and already been told by the bully boss that the outcome of the disciplinary meetings will be "devastating" for 1 or 2) Keep my head down? Or go off sick? It does actually make me feel ill to think about it all. Can't sleep, headaches and lost 8lb in a week.

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flowerybeanbag · 07/07/2008 10:14

Legally yes. Could still be grounds for an appeal though. Just because something is technically legal doesn't mean someone couldn't claim it's unfair. First question would be what does the organisation's policy say?

If these disciplinaries are for minor things, an appeal against any warning could be on the basis of it being unreasonably harsh as well.

How could you stand up for your colleagues - are you being asked to give a statement?

Why do you think they are 'going' for everyone? I mean what is their aim do you think? Always useful to understand that.

RibenaBerry · 07/07/2008 13:22

What Flowery said!

It also depends on how much 'investigation' was necessary. For example, if there were complicated allegations and a detailed report saying "well maybe x happened or maybe y" then normally that person wouldn't be on the panel. On the other hand, if you hit your colleague and your line manager was present, it would still be quite normal for him/her to be on the disciplinary panel even though they were one of the witnesses because there is no real 'investigation'.

zoggs · 07/07/2008 14:55

Thanks for that. The issues are things like one missing signature (initials) on an internal document. One individual has been told by the boss that the penalty for that is dismissal. Will find out tomorrow if that happens. No investigation required at all for that really. The evidence is black and white.

Company policy doesn't refer to who will take part in which part of the process, just what the process is.

I think an appeal would be on the lines of penalty being too harsh. If my colleagues ask me to state that the boss had already decided the outcomes before the hearings should I say something? Or that I had witnessed bullying?

The agenda is: new boss wants to have a clear out. It is true that some people could improve their performance - the culture has been a bit slack. We have had poor direction from higher management so a troubleshooter has been brought in but she is actively looking for ways to trip people up rather than support an improvement. I think heads will roll as some managers are looking for scapegoats and we are relatively easy targets.

This is all really helpful as I am consumed with these problems at the moment and my neck isn't even on the block (yet).

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flowerybeanbag · 07/07/2008 15:14

zoggs when you ask about stating the boss had already decided the outcome do you mean what you said about the boss saying to you that the outcome will be devastating for someone? Do you know who that someone is and is it that person who wants you to make a statement?

If you have witnessed bullying a statement to that effect would normally come as part of a grievance hearing for a grievance raised by the person being bullied. Is anyone considering raising a grievance about bullying or anything else?

I'd be inclined to keep out of it if you can, unless there is something concrete that will make a difference for someone. I think the worst thing about what your boss said to you was the fact that it was completely inappropriate and unprofessional to have that conversation with you. In terms of having already decided the outcome, if it is a black and white evidence case with no detailed lengthy subjective investigation, knowing what the outcome is likely to be isn't so bad. If that outcome is unreasonable your colleague can appeal it as such.

In other words, the boss did do wrong discussing it with you, and if his/her mind was completely made up inappropriately, without having heard all the evidence, and if you were positive that regardless of any evidence brought by the employee he/she would not have changed their mind, then fair enough, and you might want to consider making a statement. But only do so if you feel what you have to say is concrete evidence of something and makes a difference, and having considered the implications for yourself.

But it sound sounds as though there is plenty for you to worry about in terms of whether you'll be 'next', and involving yourself too much in 'defending' colleagues possibly won't help you.

If the sanctions taken against your colleagues are too harsh, or a policy is not followed, your colleagues can appeal the outcome and then take further action if necessary/appropriate.

Sorry you are in this situation - even when it isn't you it's tough, and very draining. If you don't feel up to work you should consider whether to get yourself signed off sick, with stress or whatever. I'm not going to encourage you to do so if you are not genuinely ill, but if they might be considering disciplining you and you are sure there is nothing they should be disciplining you for, then a short period off sick might put them off going after you for a bit, as they might feel vulnerable targeting someone who is signed off sick. Something to think about, but read your sickness absence policy carefully first, don't do it for too long, and be sure that if they are paying occupational sick pay, they probably have the right to get a second opinion if they feel it's necessary.

flowerybeanbag · 07/07/2008 15:16

zoggs is your organisation unionised and are they involved? Presumably for an organisation with 250 employees there is HR - what is their involvement?

zoggs · 07/07/2008 16:08

Right, I will steer clear of any sort of statement - damage limitation and all that. No union involvement that I know of. Decided I will leave, it's just not worth the hassle.

I would like to get a decent reference at least though. So, do I plod on and hope they don't trip me up then I can leave with a clean sheet or do I go off sick whilst I look for something else? I am under immense stress and dealing with it badly - can't sleep, eat, very weepy, etc. If the phone rings I jump a mile and I get palpitations when I see the postman approach. My GP would sign you off for 6 months for a verruca.

I haven't had any sick time since I joined the company 4 years ago. My attendance is 100%, never even been 1 minute late. At present, my days off are more stressful than being at work because I'm spending ALL my time off wondering what's going on there. At least when I'm there I've got a bit more control if you know what I mean. I'm one of those people who can't throw a sickie because the day would be ruined by guilt.

But I'm worried that because I'm so exhausted and preoccupied I will make a mistake. Just want out now. But I'm so angry that I have been forced into this situation. Ooh, I'd love to make them sorry for what they're doing.

Thanks, Flowerybeanbag.

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ilovemydog · 07/07/2008 16:11

Looks at ACAs Code of Practice re: disciplinary hearings.

ilovemydog · 07/07/2008 20:09

You are legitimately stressed - get signed off, relax and then think about it.

Word of advice. Some employers do not like the 'stress' label. Is there a company doctor that they would insist on you seeing?

If you have a sympathetic GP, perhaps he/she would be willing to discuss an appropriate reason for the employer. When I was so stressed out at one stage at work, my GP put 'investigations' which was so vague, but happened to be true. Have a kidney problem that reoccurs, and happened to kick up during times of stress.

But, I think you need some proper legal advice as the whole situation sounds a bit weird. Look for an employment solcitor and most will give you 30 minutes free.

flowerybeanbag · 07/07/2008 21:26

If you would feel more stressed being at home maybe you should stay at work, particularly if you would just worry yourself about your reference. How quickly do you feel you could find something else?

I'm not sure I agree that you need to be rushing to get legal advice. You may not agree with how they are treating others but at the moment they are not doing anything wrong as far as you are concerned. I'm not sure what you would be asking a solicitor at this stage tbh. As you have made the positive decision that you want to be elsewhere, I would advise you to focus your energies on that.

Have you got any holiday you could take? You could spend a week or two really focusing on finding alternative employment, sorting cv out, seeing agencies, etc, and not panic about your reference or the guilt of being off sick.

ilovemydog · 07/07/2008 21:39

I disagree - I think she should know what her position is as far as her rights, and then make a decision. Just because one gets advice, doesn't mean that one has to act upon it!

If she is essentially being subjected to disciplinary action as a first measure rather than, for instance, training or help with performance, and she now feels that she has no choice to leave, then this at least deserves a compenent legal opinion, in my opinion

flowerybeanbag · 07/07/2008 21:45

I'm just not sure what rights she'd be asking about though iyswim? Hypothetically what her rights would be if her employer at some point in the future attempts to discipline her about something she may or may not think is unreasonable when the time comes?

I'm not sure what advice a solicitor could give her, to act upon or otherwise, given nothing is actually happening to her at the moment, only to her colleagues. I'd probably save the 30 free minutes for the potential scenario that something does actually happen while she is looking for alternative employment. But that's just what I think

ilovemydog · 07/07/2008 21:51

Oh, you're absolutely right, flowery!

Just re read her post and misunderstood the situation. Thought she was also being disciplined.

Mea culpa. (have had a rough few nights or rather mornings with 4 month old DS)

Must read posts completely before jumping gun!

flowerybeanbag · 07/07/2008 21:54

Have an early night eh? I need one too....zzzzz

zoggs · 08/07/2008 08:22

Thank you so much for your time and really practical advice. I do feel more positive now and realise I need to concentrate on my own plans at the moment.

I have a day off today and will send my CV to a couple of agencies whilst trying not to think about all the disciplinaries that are going on this morning. If the outcomes are bad then I know it will set me back but I only have 2 shifts left this week then I have 6 days off and I know I must use this time more positively. Knowing that I have options (ACAS, solicitor etc) if things go pear shaped for me is helping me to think more rationally.

We do have an HR department at work but the (very up to date) HR Manager is on maternity leave - perhaps she's been reading this - and her stand-in doesn't inspire me with confidence - she's rather ineffectual. Just a thought - neither of you are ao maternity leave right now are you???

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