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19 weeks Pregnant . I could get signed of work. Should I take advantage of this ?

46 replies

Oblomov · 25/06/2008 21:11

I don't know what to do.
Becasue I had a car crash last weeek, because I was diabeticallly low and because an ambulance needed to be called.
Prof phoned me from Kings. She has been my diabetic consultant for the last 5 years. No more driving for me. Atleast for 3 months.
I did catch the train home last week with ds, it took 3 hours with 3 changes. It normally takes me 20 mins to drive to wrok.
Prof said she would sign me of sick if required.
Dh has asked my neighbour and he has agreed to take me and collect me on my 2.5 days.
Or should I just say stuff it, accept being signed off, during the next few lovely summer months. Enjoy spending time with ds, at this special time. I will get bigger and more uncomfortable. My diabetes may go to pot later.
I have been at my firm for over 2 years. They pay 3 motnhs full and 3 months half sick pay, at their descretion.
I am only 19 weeks now. Could they not pay me? Make me start my mat leave early. Could they argue that the diabetes is non pregnancy/pregnancy related. Plus there is nothing actually wrong with me. It is only due to the fact that gettting to work is so very stressful, thus I could argue that that in itself would make my diabetes go beserk.
I have just started a new ccounts job. VERY VERY well paid. For one or two afternoons a week. Just down the road. I could continue with this job.

What to do ?

OP posts:
Oblomov · 19/07/2008 10:11

And I will recommend your service to everyone.

OP posts:
flowerybeanbag · 19/07/2008 14:46

Thanks for that, and for feedback. Quite a few people have said the same thing so I'm going to have to discuss with my business partner and see about putting more about us on there. Maybe photos as well...(eeek!)

ilovemydog · 19/07/2008 14:55

Flowery, isn't 'pregnancy related' having to do with time frames rather than a forensic examination of illness itself?

For instance, one could break a leg a week before the birth, and would be deemed 'pregnancy related' due to proximity of the birth rather than the fact that a broken leg has nothing to do with being pregnant?

flowerybeanbag · 19/07/2008 15:06

ilovemydog, no not just about timing, it would need to be specifically related to pregnancy, including exacerbated by pregnancy, to count. Something that isn't pregnancy related but because of the pregnancy means time off work or more time off work than would normally be the case would count, for example. But just the fact that an illness happens to occur during pregnancy doesn't make it automatically pregnancy-related.

ilovemydog · 20/07/2008 15:09

Am sure you're right, but when I went back to work after maternity leave, there was this huge query as far as sick pay and the distinction between pregnancy related and non pregnancy related (as like OP, I was ill up to the birth of the baby).

Seem to recall the employer can implment your maternity leave if you're ill up to 4 weeks before the date of birth?

Obviously this makes a difference when one is trying to calculate when one is due back to work based on when the maternity leave commences!

flowerybeanbag · 20/07/2008 15:46

Still needs to be pregnancy-related ilovemydog, see below cut and pasted from BERR
--------

Absence for a pregnancy-related reason before the intended start date.

An employee who is absent from work due to illness will normally be able to take sick leave until she starts maternity leave on the date notified to her employer. However, if the illness is related to her pregnancy, the maternity leave period starts automatically on the day after the first day of absence following the beginning of the fourth week before the expected week of childbirth.

-----

As you can see, if the woman is off ill with a condition not related to pregnancy, she can remain on sick leave until the date she has elected to start her maternity leave. It's only if the sickness absence is related to her pregnancy that the employer can start the mat leave at 36 weeks.

Of course at 8 months pregnant, it would be unusual to be off sick with something completely unrelated to the pregnancy, so it's a question that doesn't come up that often.

theinsider · 20/07/2008 15:51

.

ilovemydog · 20/07/2008 18:12

Flowery, am not trying to be difficult, but the OP has had diabetes for awhile (cannot recall how long). It is not a pregnancy related condition, although may be worse in pregnancy, but her pregnancy did not cause it. In other words, a pre exisiting condition, so difficult to argue that it it's pregnancy related?

However, she states, according to her emplyer's letter that since it's a pregnancy related condition, she has to start her maternity leave on the 19th of October - 4 weeks before EWC...

flowerybeanbag · 20/07/2008 19:12

Oh sorry, I thought we were having a more general discussion about what constitutes pregnancy-related! I didn't realise you were still talking about Oblomov, sorry.

A pre-existing condition can be pregnancy-related if pregnancy makes it worse, and means that time off is needed that wouldn't otherwise have been.

I agree in Oblomov's case an extremely good argument could be made for it not being anything to do with her pregnancy.

However, as she has said herself, she's not actually too ill to work, and could have easily been working, perhaps a bit at home, or with different travel arrangements. Lots of employers would have investigated further, got a medical opinion and Occ Health opinion on what adjustments were needed to allow her to carry on working. But her employer decided they would rather sign her off sick and pay her (generous) sick pay instead. Fine, great for Oblomov.

Yes she could quite easily argue that starting her mat leave at 36 weeks for pg-related sickness isn't fair or technically legal. But then they could quite easily argue that they'd been paying her full pay then half pay for being off 'sick' when they could have easily challenged it and made her work.

My view is she's done quite well out of the situation so far, so when making a decision about whether to challenge this, she should bear that in mind and consider all the circumstances and the goodwill so far enjoyed. Doesn't mean she hasn't got an extremely good point, I agree she has, but that doesn't make it the right decision necessarily.

ilovemydog · 20/07/2008 21:53

Flowery, so you are saying that an amicable resolution is better for all concerned than an adversarial approach, keeping in mind that she will still work for her employer at the end of her maternity leave; that goodwill cannot be itemized like expenses...

I can understand this viewpoint, however is diabetes ever a disability under disability legislation (i.e. an illness for over 12 months) whereby her employers would be obliged to make arrangements for her, which would include transport? Or does an employers duty of care only commence once the employee has arrived physically on the premises?

Oblomov · 21/07/2008 08:16

oh this is fascinating.
I am being DISCUSSED.
I don't think I have ever been so famous

I am sorry to have to say this, but over the weekend, I have been um'ing ang ahh'ing about this.

What I mean is, my co is very nice. But they only pay stat maternity pay. We are part of a much bigger group, and many of the other companies offer almost full pay for the whole of maternity leave. So lets not get carried away here about how great my co is.

And I do think it is unlikely that I will
return. I currently leave home at 7.30am and drop ds off at nursery, which is on my worksite, but seperate from it. I can be in work at 8am and thus able to finish at 4.30. I am home by 5. Lovely.
If I dropped ds at school at 9.15, take baby to nursery for 10am, I would have to leave work at 2.30 ? to get ds from school at 3.15pm. Is is manageable. Why do it ?

My HR lady is very nice. I am not talking about contesting this and it all getting nasty. But a simple phone call to her, to query if it is pregnancy related, might not be such a bad idea.
Then I could get an extra 4 weeks money at either full sick pay, or half sick pay. Plus my maternity leave would start later, and I would then be able to decide if I return in Nov next year, rather than Oct. Doesn't sound like alot. But an extra month with my new baby, could be very precious at that time.
Oh sorry. I am dithering. Can't decide what to do.

OP posts:
flowerybeanbag · 21/07/2008 09:43

I suppose that is sort of what I'm saying Ilove, yes. A non-adversarial discussion is sometimes best, depending on what you stand to gain or lose.

The basic point is that knowing your technical rights about one aspect of your situation is important. But deciding what to do involves taking much more than that into consideration.

Obviously only Oblomov (the famous! ) herself knows all the circumstances and background (and has now added some more to it!), so only she is in a position to weigh everything up and decide what course of action is likely to result in the best outcome for her.

There are pros and cons of considering absence pregnancy-related, as have been pointed out during this thread. Her employer currently seems to view this absence as pregnancy-related. Contesting that viewpoint might prevent Oblomov's employer starting her maternity leave at 36 weeks (and I don't know when Oblomov indicated initially that she was going to start it anyway), but it might also have other implications which need to be considered. There is the possibility that her whole 'sickness' could be reviewed, and some goodwill lost at the very least. Only Oblomov will have a sense of how likely that is, and if she doesn't intend to go back, then obviously that's less important.

In terms of whether diabetes is a disability, I don't think it's as simple as that to decide, and I don't think that's the point here.

My point is that Oblomov stated herself that she was perfectly capable of working, she had an offer of a lift to work and also felt at least some of her job could be done at home. During pregnancy the employer must make adjustments to work if there is a health and safety issue preventing the employee doing her normal job under normal conditions. I don't think this is strictly the case here, but it gives a context. If I had been advising the employer, I would have advised them to seek further medical opinion, and occupational health opinion on Oblomov's ability to work, and if the view was that it was only transportation that was the issue, I would have advised possibly a combination of homeworking and alternative transportation.

So it's not about a duty of care as such, more about it being in the employer's interest for someone to be working rather than forking out sick pay.

They took the view that they wouldn't do that, and Oblomov has benefited as a result. So that is something to bear in mind when deciding what to do.

But the context of how nice the company really is and whether Oblomov has any intention of going back afterwards is also pertinent.

I think this is a wonderful illustration of the reality of people management and being an employee. Knowing your rights is a good thing, and everyone should, and should know how to exercise them. But knowing how to make good effective decisions about managing people and about what action to take as an employee is equally important in my view.

I have said on here many times and will again I am sure. It is important given any situation you find yourself in at work, to decide what realistic and achieveable outcome you want from the situation given all the circumstances, and to decide what the best/easiest/least risky/cheapest (delete as appropriate) way of achieving that result is.

Frequently that involves walking away and not exercising your rights. Sometimes it involves fighting tooth and nail for them. Often it's something inbetween. But the individual is the only person able to make that decision, particularly in a scenario like this on an internet forum where people are posting opinions for Oblomov with very little knowledge about her and even less about her employer.

All we can do is offer our own experiences, our own reading of the situation as we see it, and our own knowledge, which hopefully sometimes equips the person to make that decision.

ilovemydog · 21/07/2008 09:48

Oblomov, Flowery is right. You seem to be happy, and your employer seems to be happy.

I wouldn't call HR and query the pregnancy related issue as Flowery correctly points out, you have a tremendous amount of goodwill.

Oblomov · 21/07/2008 09:52

Thank you Flowery. Your posts are always so eloquent and 'at the right level'.
I will give it some thought as to whether to phone Maureen at all.
I am thinking that it might not do any harm to mention it to her, she is so nice, and if they say this is the way it is, I will just let it go.
But I am not sure. As you said, I do have alot to lose for the sake of a few weeks extra money.
Not sure.
No rush. Will think it through and talk to dh.

OP posts:
flowerybeanbag · 21/07/2008 09:56

No worries.

No immediate rush as you say, and if you have a nice HR lady you can have a bit of an informal exploratory chat with, that might well be the way to go.

bojangles · 21/07/2008 14:12

Just to add my views here as a fellow insulin dependant diabetic who is also pregnant and currently signed off for 2 weeks to stabilsie sugars - I am 16 weeks with DC3.

If your blood sugar was so low as to cause you to have a car accident and to require assitance from the emergency services then I would suggest that this is more than just a driving issue - your employer may well not be happy for a similar incident to occur at work. It is not the driving that made you hypo but the effect the hypo had on you that caused you to crash. I wonder if they are thinking that they could do without you collapsing on them at work and have taken a risk assesment that it is better to keep you off.

I also note that you will have this baby early anyway because of the daibetes - mine were born 36 and 37 weeks and in which case your maternity leave is triggered by the birth of the baby in any event so the difference of 36 weeks enforced mat leave and the baby coming at around 37 - 38 weeks is really not that much.

I think they would need a medical report to assess whether this incident was pregnancy related but I think you need to be carfeul as the upshot of it not being pregnancy ralted is that you would have to declare 3+ months of sickness to a new employer.

I understand your motivation but if I were in your shoes I would take this as an opportunity to stabilise your blood sugars and relax. Do you have other children? If so spend some lovely tiem with them over the summer and if you don't you can do the rarest of things and focus completely on you and the baby. The difference of at 2-3 weeks pay might not really be worth the possible detrimental effect on your sickness record for the future.

If htis is your first preganancy and you want to chat more about the diabetes side I am happy to give you my experiences.

Oblomov · 21/07/2008 14:47

Bojangles, thank you for your lovely post.
We have met before.
I have seen you on threads with Tigger and Hoxtonchick.
We were on the same thread when we compared our post birth care for diabetics.

No, this is my second pregnancy. And so far it is going very well.
Better than my first actually. I am testing religiously. And I did actually do a tesat not long before I got in the car that day. That is why Prof recommmneded no driving. Becasue she was very shocked at the rapid drop in sugars and my loss of awareness, which had previously and recently been so good.

Kings, like most of the London hospitals like you to get to 38 weeks, if poss. But with ds, although I had a planned cs date, my contractions started and were every minute very quickly and I was already 5cm dilated by the time I got to Kings. I think I was only 36 weeks then. My cs was booked for 2 weeks later.

But I do take on board evrything you have said. And in my previous posts to Flowery, I have aknowledged how lucky I am with my job doing what they have done.
And ds starts school in Sept. So I have already accepted that this is a total blessing to have some very special time with him, prior to him starting school
And the fatc that someone is full paying me, for doing so, is something I am TOTALLY grateful for.

Anyway, congratulations to you too. On your third pregnancy. I am 23 weeks today. So you are only a few weeks behind me.
I sincerely hope you too get your bloods stabilised. Are you hoping to be able to return to work soon ?

OP posts:
bojangles · 21/07/2008 15:17

Hi Oblov - sorry we have indeed 'met' before - I am not good with names!! My DD starts school in september too so we have a lot in common.

My blood sugars aren't that bad just fluctuating highs and lows - you know what is like - you get a high then desperately try to get it down and end up over adjusting and being hypo and the cycle continues.

Sounds like you warning signs have temporarily gone - that is quite scary so take of yourself.

I am back at my GP next week to review my work but I am hoping to go back on reduced hours as it a fairly new job and I want to return after mat leave but I will take the advice of the Dr.

It is so hard being diabetic and pregnant isn't it? I think, for me having DD4, DS2 and working full time plus the diabetes is just too much at the moment!

Take care
x

Oblomov · 21/07/2008 15:28

Yes, I totally understand.
Easy to fall into that cycle. I keep over correcting my highs. I am not going too low, as a result. But Professor Amiel keeps telling me off, about it

I don't know how you do it. Full itme that is. I have only ever worked p/t since ds. The thought of working p/t and school, scares me.
I think that as a quite brittle diabetic, having had it for 34 years, I do very well, to even consider having 2 children, a lovely dh, and even working part time.
I think dh would prefer it if I stayed at home, once ds2 gets here.
We shall see.

OP posts:
bojangles · 21/07/2008 16:46

I have only worked full time since Christmas - not much choice from work but def not my choice. I stayed at home for 18 months after DC2 and would have kept it that way but I felt my career was slipping away so returned to work initially as a locum but then permanent full time post. I WILL NOT be going back full time after mat leave! I just want to preserve my full time mat leave entitlement otherwise I would drop my hours today!

I am lucky in that I have only been diabetic for 8 years and am fairly easily managed - it is just pregnancy that has thrown me. Just think 30 years ago we would have been advised against having children. I suspect you are a bit like me and don't want to accept that you have a condition that governs your whole life - I get quite embarrassed about talking about diabetes as I think it makes me weak - sounds silly perhaps but I read between the lines in your original post wanting to dismiss the hypo which caused the accident when infact we should prpbably be saying - 'that is terrible you have a horrible condition that you have struggled with all your life and now it has stopped you from driving not to mention the ongoing daily grind of testing blood sugars and the constant calculation in your mind of whether you are high or low etc' - sorry am I waffling?! Just trying to explain that I think we should go easier on ourselves.

PinkElephant73 · 23/07/2008 19:45

To the OP, if you can afford it, just take the sick leave and enjoy the summer with your DS. It will be the last time you have just the two of you!

I agree with the earlier poster who said that your work are probably concerned you may have a similar incident at work. I am sure they would rather you were fit and well and at work but its not a risk they want to take - and you know what - they may have a point. take some time to put your feet up while you can.

also, however you get to work it will be more and more tiring as the pg goes on, especially with another child to look after, and I speak from experience here!

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