Is UK university debt worth it for a non-vocational degree?

[BettyBoh]

This question sits between work/education /finances/family.

in short: is the massive amount of student debt worth it if you chose a degree that’s not directly vocational (eg physio leads you to be a physio, accounting leads you to work in finance admin, but business or history doesnt really lead you anywhere directly unless you want to teach it). Is it better to find a job and work your way up or sideways through different companies?

in long:
my son is 17 and in Lower 6th studying A-levels.
he did well at GCSE due to being intelligent, good school attendance and good attitude to learning. He used study leave wisely meeting - meeting fiends at the library and using an appon his phone to block distractions. He got all 9s and 8s.
he’s doing ok at a-level but distractions like social life are getting in the way of how well he could be doing. He knew A-levels were a significant step up from GCSE. He takes 4 because it’s school policy and one is a language he already speaks so it’s not full on work.

he is thinking about uni. If he changes his mentality a bit he could get A*/A/B/B, but he’s struggling with focus. Very likely ADHD - it’s hereditary and he is showing every classic sign. He’s destined for ABCC I think at a push.

i think he should go and work. Theres plenty of jobs that don’t require degrees. He doesn’t want want to miss out on “all the fun” but I am desperately worried about the debt. 60k is a deposit on a flat!

there are other cheaper alternatives open to him with a European passport but for now I’d just like opinions on UK uni and UK debt.

Go to university. Most jobs nowadays require a university degree, it doesn't really matter what the degree subject is in but it's important to have a degree and get at least a 2:1 for most decent paying jobs.

You're looking at the debt the wrong way - most people in the UK nowadays never pay off their student loans - they continue to pay around 10% of their paycheck before tax to the student loans company (once your income exceeds a certain threshold) for the rest of their life, but in return they tend to get jobs that earn much much higher, so I see it as kind of an "education tax". And like mentioned, if you don't earn enough to trigger the threshold you don't pay any student loans back that month, so its no harm if they do end up earning quite little

On the current plan people pay back 9% above the threshold, I think. That might be wrong and I haven't looked it up but it's around that I think. The threshold is around average earnings. It's obviously not worth it if you are going to be on just above average earnings your whole life. If you have a really good set of grades and can go to a good university and potentially increase your salary for your whole life then the repayments won't be a problem. And if it doesn't work out, then you don't have to repay it if you are below the threshold.

It's often as little as £50 a month.

I'd prefer to reduce the numbers in higher education and go back to a grant system. But I don't think the current system is unmanageable at all. The people it serves worst are those with not so great grades who go to universities that are unlikely to be worth the investment.

What is his entitlement to higher education in the EU? I’d be looking very closely at that. In many EU countries not only are the fees significantly cheaper, the living costs are too. Accommodation, particularly, but also things like transport and bills. Depends where, of course. If it’s metro France there isn’t going to be much difference. If it’s Germany, Benelux or Poland, hed be absolutely mad to do uni in the UK.

Its the interest rate that people complain about. I saw so many news stories recently where people said that they left Uni 50,000 in debt. They have been paying it off every month. 10 years later, they are 80,000 pounds, in debt. Because the interest charged on the loan is huge.

I went to Uni in the EU, I didn't get any loan and have no student debt. The EU doesn't do everything right but it does Uni quite well

I think there have been problems. But there are several different plans and they are not all the same.

If you go to a good university and get a good degree, you will recoup your costs assuming you get a graduate role and work hard and progress.

If you go to one of the less well regarded universities it is very possible that it might not be worth it.

OP's child has gained great grades so far and has every opportunity to go to a good university and get a good degree.

Well, yes. I'm absolutely in favour of not charging people for university. But that would mean reducing access. You either have lots of people going and fees or you have fewer people going and grants. It's swings and roundabouts. There are benefits in both scenarios.

How does it reduce access exactly? Loads of people go to Uni in the EU. I barely know anyone in the EU area that didn't go to Uni

From the BBC in 2020 but probably still valid.

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I guess other countries have different priorities about university. Eg, in the UK most students will leave home and live independently. In France, for instance, a large majority of students live at home. In some countries there are much less specialised courses than in the UK so degrees tend to be four years rather than three. It's different in different countries. The trade off here has been that university has widened access but not all the courses have been of particularly high quality.

I don't know where your friends in the EU attended university but it's very country-dependent.

The interest rate is irrelevant though unless you’re likely to pay it off in full - and most won’t unless they’re very high earners.

EU - have to be domiciled there for three years, and be able to support self as no loans.

How about a degree apprenticeship? He would gain a qualification in the field he's interested in while learning on the job. The pay is minimum wage, but that’s not too bad if he’s likely to still be living at home.
They also tend to be years ahead of students who go to university without a vocational focus. It’s definitely worth looking into. The only downside is that they’re very popular, so there’s a lot of competition.

I broadly agree with this. The idea of repaying loans and mounting interest is never nice - but graduates need to view it as a tax, not an insurmountable debt. There has been so much reaction to the awful terms of the plan 2 loans that the situation is easier for today's (and tomorrow's) students.

What I would say is, not all degrees are the same. A degree in Economics from Cambridge is massively different to a degree in Media Studies from Plymouth. The latter isn't worth the money, bluntly.

Also worth considering that some industries are very vocational and some young people would be far better off doing an apprenticeship or going straight into the workplace, tough as it is...

Plenty of non-vocational degrees are well trodden paths to certain careers. DD is doing a Masters of Mathematics in Mathematical Physics at a decent university. A huge variety of options are open to her that wouldn't be without a degree. It's not guaranteed, but I think Maths probably has better outcomes than many vocational degrees.

Thanks everyone - lots to think about. I do have a degree from a Russell group university (ithere were no fees at the time and my rent was £35 a week) and a masters done 10 years later (I paid, I owned my own home so I commuted)

I am curious as to those who say lots of jobs require a degree now. I know someone who has gone in at grade 6 in the civil service, mid 30s, no degree but had relevant experience from working their way up in industry.
in my last job I hired a team of 9 in a start-up, all based on experience. None had a degree.

So I work at a university. Nobody in our admin office is without a degree. For entry level minimum wage admin jobs. My degree less friend with 20 years office experience was passed over in favour of a new graduate with no experience.

Not every organisation will be like this. Some will. However if he can get on a good training scheme or apprenticeship then I’d do that over a degree.

The experience of someone now in their mid 30s is entirely irrelevant to someone looking for a job now. The post Covid and post AI job market is a completely different arena.

Graduates are struggling to get traditional graduate jobs, so are taking any job, reducing the pool of jobs for non-graduates. Even entry level jobs require previous experience. I'm sure it's still possible to start at the bottom and work your way up but it's significantly harder than it was even as recently as 10-15 years ago. If I had an academic teen I would be encouraging them to get a degree (either via university or apprenticeship) as it will still massively open up the number of opportunities they have.

I’m a bit surprised by the mention of suspected ADHD unless there’s more to share, tbh if you just going to let him carry on unsupported seeing he’s already struggling in school with lack of focus, it’s frankly unlikely to be worth the expense as he’s likely to struggle even more at uni.
Get him assessed!

So many jobs seem to require a degree, not in a particular subject, but a degree of any kind. Truly angers me. A woman know did a film and media degree and got a graduate trainee position at Tesco as a buyer. She’s done really well has a great career. My son has worked in retail since 16 at a men’s boutique and has gone on buying trips. But as he doesn’t have a degree he wouldn’t even pass the first stage at Tesco. What does a degree in a totally non related field give you that five years working in the actual sector? Hmm?
University can be con. While my DD loves her subject, she truly resents the system. So many in her field get master degrees as the undergraduate degree is too broad, so to progress she’ll need that too, otherwise she just has a degree that doesn’t lead to a specific degree without further specialisation (and debt).
Its hard to even get a graduate trainee position these days and if your son could find some sort of apprenticeship or training scheme I’d go for that, but I get these are just as hard if not harder to find.

I think you need to assess and treat ADHD first. Uni will be very difficult if he is ADHD.

Second, I think this is a short term view - the better option is to figure out what he wants to do first. If and only if a degree is the best route then go to Uni.

Otherwise it's just way too many options and decisions to make whilst trying to do a degree which is already a challenge with ADHD.

If the issue is that you don't have connections to figure out these careers then you have to be proactive at finding opportunities.

This. That's why, unless you win the lottery or something, don't bother ever paying the loan back and just view it as a "higher earning job tax"