Would appreciate some HR advice about bullying manager in large multi-national company

[16andsnowing]

I'd love some HR input here as I don't know what to do next with my bullying and controlling boss. Sorry it's long, wanted to get the key facts down!

Some details - work for a large international company with strong HR/business conduct rules.

There is a director, then a senior manager who my manger reports into.

My manager has had a bullying claim raised against her before, the person who accused her ended up leaving. The whole process took months and she was a wreck at the end of it.

I have raised concerns about her bullying in our 360 reviews for four years. My understanding is that many other teams have also found her difficult to work with. She has been sent on training courses etc.

I have also spoken to the senior manager four times over the last three years and she was aware of all the issues as other people had also reported my manager. There is now a new senior manager who I think knows of all the issues.

A while ago I spoke to the director and said I needed to leave as I could no longer cope with her behaviour. She asked me not to leave and give her time to sort it out. I think the behaviour is now publicly better but there is a lot of underhand behaviour that is affecting me. In the last six months:

Not told of a meeting that all my team were invited to. When someone mentioned I wasn't there, she said I didn't need to be there
Not taking me to an outside event directly relevant to our work but taking another team member. Neither of them mentioned it me. Someone else from our company asked me why I didn't attend
Has told me that I might be having a half year 360 review, read out all the areas I needed to improve in from my previous review. Other team members have not been told of this. In my last review, there were no comments from other colleagues about where I was failing, the comments were all from her perspective
Given incorrect information about how to apply for a business trip so my trip wasn't approved but colleague's was
Suddenly told me that there was a meeting about a key aspect of our job (that I have been doing for over 20 years). There was a presentation from a colleague about how to do this key aspect. This colleague has been doing this for 2 years since they started at our company and often asks me for advice about how to do it - they are in no way an expert. It was extremely humiliating for me

I recently (4 months ago?) went to see the head of HR with a couple of these points. She apologised and said it was emotional abuse. I didn't want to have my name on this complaint for fear of retaliation. She said she would raise it with the director in an anonymous way, probably through reviews. I've not heard anything since.

I don't think I can cope with this for much longer. There is a lot more than listed here. Before the previous senior manager left, I was talking to her about being managed by her. This conversation has now stopped - it seems that all the concerns I raised with her didn't go anywhere and she didn't speak to the director or HR about my issues. I don't know if the new senior manager wants to manage me - she is asking my manager for a lot of help as she's new and we have a complicated way of working. So she needs my manager on side.

What do I do next? I've made a list of everything that's happened over the last six months or so. Should I give it to HR? How might this escalate? Is there any chance I could lose my job given that the last person who complained was managed out?
I get on really well with all my colleagues and get great feedback from them - I genuinely do not have any issues with anyone else, in fact I always avoid issues even when someone is difficult, I can find a way to work with them and get them on side.

I should also add - I can't afford to leave this job. It's very well paid for my industry and there are no other jobs like it. I would be taking a pay of cut of around 70% if I left, and there aren't any other jobs in this field to apply for anyway.

I think it was deeply inappropriate and unprofessional of the Head of HR to declare your examples "emotional abuse" without undertaking any investigation or following proper process.

You should be able to look up your employer's grievance policy and the procedure to follow if you wish to raise a grievance. However, what outcome are you looking for here?

Being pragmatic, accusing someone more senior of bullying is likely to make it untenable for you to continue working there. It is more likely to end with you leaving than the manager. Most people with people management responsibilities will at some time or another be accused of bullying, often by a poor performer - it doesn't mean they have bullied anyone or that they are bullying you. Pointing at previous unsubstantiated allegations doesn't make you look good.

I don't agree that the examples you have given constitute emotional abuse, but perhaps you have left out many details that would have changed my impression. Accusing someone of abuse is a very serious allegation to make and it should be substantiated by serious supporting evidence.

I am also not sure that it is a reasonable reaction to feel humiliated because someone else in your team was asked to give a presentation about a task they perform and have performed for 2 years. Arguably, it can be said that they were asked to give the presentation for development reasons and I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that they shouldn't have those opportunities because they "only" have 2 years of experience rather than 20.

If your relationship with your manager hadn't broken down (as it clearly has), do you still think you would have felt that it was humiliating or bullying for another team member to be given the opportunity to share knowledge internally? Or is it possible that whatever your manager does now, you're going to read malice into it regardless of whether it exists?

I’m an experienced HR professional. You have a few issues. From what you have said it is obvious the organisation is aware there are issues around your line managers behaviour and yet little appears to have been done to deal with it. This would suggest to me an unwillingness by the system, for some reason, to tackle her behaviours, which unfortunately puts you in a difficult position. You have the option of seeking mediation as a first step where you explain to her the impact of her behaviour and informal resolution is sought but I think this is unlikely to help. You could bring a grievance, which you may win, but then your employer would need to be effective in putting in measures to manage her behaviour and are they likely to do this? Most likely outcome of raising a grievance is you leaving on a compromise agreement, which from what you have said you don’t want to do, I think.

Whatever you choose to do, keep documenting everything, dates, times , who was there, what was said etc so you do have document should you wish to take a complaint further.

I've seen issues like this, where people sail close to the wind so its hard to determine if the scenario was inappropriate or not or they always have a good answer for something ie "why didn't you invite 16andsnowing to the event? I've decided that 16andsnowing and X would take turns and it was X's turn" "did you give 16andsnowing incorrect information so their trip wouldn't be approved - no not intentionally". Then it descends into "he said she said" which becomes subjective. The best your left with then is mediation, agreeing ways to work with each other and both parties compromising or avoiding each other.

Thanks both, some stuff for me to think about there. I've just listed a few of the things over the last six months or so and have left out a lot of detail.

For the meeting about key aspects of our work, the only people in the meeting were me, the colleague presenting and my manager. It wasn't a scheduled meeting. I was sitting at my desk and then suddenly told we're having a meeting about Key Aspect and colleague is going to show you how to do it.

There is obviously a LOT more. At one point I thought she was trying to force me to leave by making the environment so hostile for me. I ended up in counselling as it was so stressful. At that point, she made no attempt to hide that she was treating me differently. Other colleagues would apologise to me after meetings, as they could see that I was getting a lot of harsh and unnecessary criticism. They are all too scared of her to complain though.

I haven't used the words bullying or controlling at work, just used them here as a shortcut. I do think her behaviour is abusive but I wouldn't say that to anyone at work.

Her previous manager asked me to raise issues with her directly, which I did, professionally. The result was that she denied everything outright and since then there has been a change in the work I'm given - I'm no longer given more interesting or advanced projects. This is provable.

I was also very suprised at it being called emotional abuse and how quickly HR accepted my version of events. I gave HR two very specific examples of behaviour though and there were witnesses to both, so provable I guess. I do appreciate that my manager will have a completely different outlook to me. And one of the reasons I'm so wary of raising concerns is that it is a senior person and there is a chance I won't be believed.

The most frustrating thing is that with her previous manager we started a conversation about me being managed by her, and then she moved to another dept and left no record of that conversation and didn't discuss it with the director. I don't think the director would approach the old manager for info - it seems like once you move teams, you're not involved with the old team at all.

You're right that I don't want to leave as there are so few jobs that come up and I wouldn't get this sort of salary elsewhere.

I just know that I can't be doing this for much longer. I think about work all the time, am panicked if I make the smallest mistake (my mistakes are ALWAYS called out in team chats). The last time I hadn't even made a mistake, she sent a message at 9pm to tell everyone I wasn't following process. We had a team meeting at 9am the next morning where she could have discussed it and she would have seen the error was hers rather than mine. But just imagine two or three instances like this, every day, for four years. And that's not counting when something major goes wrong, when she will apportion blame to whoever she feels she can bully.

I don't know what is best to do. Go to HR with a list of stuff that's happened recently and hope an investigation would be helpful, go to the director and ask to change managers, or just do nothing and see how I get on with the new senior manager and hope somehow it resolves itself.

There are a couple of very good managers who I sometimes have a coffee and chat with. I know I could discuss it with them and they would help but right now I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible.

Bullying is very hard to prove, could you see an external employment lawyer for a consultation? You are being bullied though. As you probably know, HR work for the company generally and not the employee. You should be able to speak up as a senior member of staff and be believed and have your case looked into.

If you leave you could sue them for constructive dismissal and/or go via tribunal. Forget process.

Or compromise/settlement agreement but you don’t really want to leave.

Would your HR support mediation?

I would also job hunt and get on linked in. See which of your skills are transferable and if you need a short course to add skills/retrain slightly. Otherwise you could be stuck there for years with a grievance, nothing happens to her or they manage you out. Often the case that the instigator is not disciplined by HR if there’s grievances against them. For whatever reasons I do not know.

Also see if your work offer counselling and/or go to the doctor to get signed off, or medication. You have to be aware if you stay there you need all the tools you have. When I was being bullied at work I saw a therapist for it, gave me great CBT techniques. She won’t change I can guarantee it. But the way you currently cope can change.

Oh and document everything.

For the meeting about key aspects of our work, the only people in the meeting were me, the colleague presenting and my manager. It wasn't a scheduled meeting. I was sitting at my desk and then suddenly told we're having a meeting about Key Aspect and colleague is going to show you how to do it.

Okay, that's weird. I was envisaging something different.

I've just seen someone else on another thread recommend the "Let them" book. If she chooses to point out errors in a teams chat, you don't have to care - especially if you know the other people are inwardly rolling their eyes too. If you adjust your internal narrative about these events, you can adjust how you feel about it. (The basic principle of CBT - the narrative we tell ourselves drives our emotional response and then our behaviour.)

So for instance with the presentation situation instead of sitting there thinking "this is so embarrassing, I have 20 years experience and this person has 2, everyone must think I'm terrible at my job" etc etc until you feel wound up and humiliated - you could just think "okay, she's being weird again, that's a bit sad for her, but I'll be supportive of my colleague's presentation because it's not her fault she's being used as a pawn" then you paint on a supportive expression and ponder what you want for dinner tonight.

That's not to say that it's okay for her to do these things, but that you do have power here too. If she wants to be weird and tragic, you can detach and let it wash over you. You don't have to feel humiliated or distressed.

Since you want to stay in this organisation I think you have to be tactical. Continue building your relationships and reputation then see if you can manoeuvre yourself away from her without having to go through the stress of a grievance procedure. If you have a game plan, it will also make it easier to detach from her behaviour.

I would ask for a coffee and chat with a senior Manager. Say you need some help and guidance 'off the books' on a work related issue. Then lay it all out as you have in your OP. Say you were disappointed no concrete action was taken when you last approached HR. Ask them if it would be possible to move jobs, change manager or something else? Make sure they know the impact this is having on you. Keep it factual.

This is good advice. However I'd also add just keep some notes as these things happen. Ideally send yourself an email so you can show it's contemporaneous. Just pop them in a folder for reference.
This is if you decide the stress of the grievance process is too much. It's honestly very difficult to navigate good outcomes in this type of grievance. Especially as it's clear that others can see her behaviour and are choosing not to address it explicitly. I can't understand why not incidentally.

You could choose to inform HR of your list but not raise the grievance. Then at least if she comes for you more overtly you have it documented

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who commented on this thread. It was all incredibly useful and helped me decide what to do next. Also love the idea of emailing notes to myself - I have kept records but they are a mess and all over the place!

I'm not going to speak to HR again for now as it does seem that while a formal complaint might get some issues resolved it might end up with me having to leave or being paid off.

We have 360 reviews coming up soon and I think I will use that to raise the issues as it seems like a less aggressive way of making my point.

Just this week the new senior manager has made some quite drastic changes in response to other teams' ongoing issues with my manager. The other teams are really pleased. It was an area where my manager was letting a lot of people down, it's been going on for years and she's now been removed from handling that particular process.

I suppose the senior manager wants to make her mark and assert her authority in her new job and we still don't really know what she's like professionally but it's a start. I am confident in my work and my relationships with other colleagues so don't feel too worried yet.

My manager has been SO nice to me this week. It's like a completely different person, and one I've never met before! Maybe she's realised that she might not be able to get away with her behaviour any more and is trying to avoid a negative review.

I'm quietly hopeful that if I use the reviews to list her provable, unreasonable behaviour, something might get done. And if it doesn't, I'll probably come back to this thread to ask what I do next!

Glad you feel better about it.

However, do not trust this woman is all I will say. From bitter experience.